Is this bad? implied odds

havent played to many hands with villian but seems solid

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($226.97)
UTG ($22.79)
Hero ($103.65)
Button ($95.45)
SB ($134.95)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 6, 8. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, SB (poster) raises to $8.5, 1 fold, Hero calls $5.

Flop: ($19) 6, 9, 2 (2 players)
SB bets $9, Hero calls $9.

Turn: ($37) 6 (2 players)

River: ($37) 7 (2 players)

Final Pot: $37

i think converter messed up

yes hold on

$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, May 03, 00:05:48 ET 2006
Table Table 106782 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: BB ( $226.97 )
Seat 4: 4 ( $95.45 )
Seat 5: villian ( $134.95 )
Seat 3: Hero ( $103.65 )
Seat 2: 2 ( $22.79 )
villian posts small blind [$0.50].
BB posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ ]
1 fold.
Hero raises [$4].
1 fold.
villian raises [$8.50].
BB folds.
Hero calls [$5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]
villian bets [$9].
Hero calls [$9].
** Dealing Turn ** [ ]
villian bets [$15].
Hero raises [$40].
villian is all-In [$101.95]
Hero is all-In [$45.65]
** Dealing River ** [ ]

i would raise the flop, but theres certainly nothing wrong with your line

Originally Posted by gabe

i would raise the flop, but theres certainly nothing wrong with your line

I would raise the flop here most of the time, but probably not in this situation. He min-reraised you preflop, and a lot of times that is AA or KK, and I don't think we have much fold equity by raising the flop. Getting it all in on the flop isn't all that bad since we'd be a small favorite I believe to win the hand, but I also like calling the flop bet and re-evaluate on the turn. I would probably play this hand exactly like you did, and I assume he had JJ+ and you stacked his ass.

How do you know where you are when you raise 6 8 suited PF?

It's very common to raise hands like this in 6 max....

Originally Posted by WildBobAA

It's very common to raise hands like this in 6 max....

I can understand that .. But how do you know where you are in the hand?

how do you guys play brick turn after calling flop?

Originally Posted by WildBobAA

It's very common to raise hands like this in 6 max....

I guess my question would be: If you raise with this and get callers is there any possible way you can put them on a range of hands? Also if you were to flip the script and use a hand like this 6 8s to call with wouldnt you say youd know better where you stand? It's not a raising nor calling hand IMO. Correct me if Iam wrong.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

how do you guys play brick turn after calling flop?

Call any bet you have odds to call. Easy to put him on an overpair and assume you have probably 14 outs.

Originally Posted by fasin8ing

I guess my question would be: If you raise with this and get callers is there any possible way you can put them on a range of hands? Also if you were to flip the script and use a hand like this 6 8s to call with wouldnt you say youd know better where you stand? It's not a raising nor calling hand IMO. Correct me if Iam wrong.

It takes a certain amount of imagination. Raising with it is like raising basically any other hand - you know basically what people call raises with and what they re-raise with, based on your reads of them as players. You're probably not going to hit often with this hand, so you read the flop texture and usually look to take it down with a continuation bet on the flop - as you do the majority of the times you raise. But what you'd really like is to hit an improbable flop that makes you a flush, straight, or unexpected trips, and take advantage of someone who has something worse than that & thinks you missed the flop because you raised. Raising this kind of a hand is profitable for two reasons: 1. you can raise any two cards and continuation bet to win a pot, so it's worth doing at least occasionally with whatever you are holding; and 2. if you hit the right flop against the right opponent with a middle or big pocket pair, you can break them.

Calling a raise with this kind of hand is more typical, and happens a lot at 6-max. You're hoping to make a very tricky, hidden straight or two pair or trips, and then de-stack someone with a big pair or TPTK.

I'm not sure what you mean about knowing where you are. You're not raising with this hand, or calling a raise, because it's a great hand as is. And you're not hoping to make a pair of sixes or eights. You're basically stealing at first, and if you hit a monster you're hoping no one will believe you because you raise/called a raise, and surely wouldn't have THAT hand.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

I'm not sure what you mean about knowing where you are. You're not raising with this hand, or calling a raise, because it's a great hand as is.

I was talking about PF and getting multiple callers as far as knowing where you are. More or less just looking at the hand PF in general. I see your point in a deceptive kinda way. I think discussion would be a lot different if some face cards were out there. I doubt anyone is re raising pf with 99 or 22 so there is no doubt villain has a big hand. You can also de stack yourself if all goes to shit in hands like these. Im new to ring and I just cant see raising with any two and c betting any old flop. I think the term was spewing chips in SNG's. Long term this cant be profitable. Maybe its ok HU, but how many times is this really going to happen? Will the pots you win outweight the amount of times you have done this and failed? We could go back and forth, maybe this hand is a little advanced for me.

I raise that hand in that position (CO+button) sometimes if I haven't been able to raise in a while. Keeps consistency. Don't do it if you've been raising a lot lately, you're going on fold equity here more often than not.. that, or to hit a nice flop, like here. And I wouldn't raise the flop in this particular case either.. he reraised preflop, so folding equity is minimal, better just see what goes down.

I'm also putting your opp on QQ+, so I guess you stacked him? But from you posting this, maybe something went wrong afterall?

Anyway, just for reference, in the following situation..

opp: Ac Ad
you: 8s 6s

flop: 2s 6c 9s

..you are the 52% favorite to win the hand over turn+river.

Originally Posted by fasin8ing

I was talking about PF and getting multiple callers as far as knowing where you are.

That's not your goal. The reason you raise with crap occasionally in a short-handed game is because you think you can isolate with your raise, and no matter what your opponent has - as long as it's not a big pair, jacks or better - the flop most of the time won't look too good to him, and you can win the pot with a continuation bet. That's a standard series of events in 6-max whenever you raise pre-flop. The only reason you don't do it every hand is because it quickly drains your credibility and you start getting an undesirable amount of calls. Therefore, you tend to do this when you're in position, and as an occasional change-up. A lot of good players - a lot of pros - even pick one or two garbage hands that they always make this move with, as a way of randomizing it so that it can't be predicted. If you raise on the button every time around, people will notice that quickly. But if you raise every time you get 64 suited, as long as it's not in the blinds, it's random - and infrequent enough that they'll credit you for a good hand. Then you just need to feel out the table and make sure you're raising the right amount to get the proper amount of action. The right amount to raise is pretty much always going to be at least 3xBB, and the proper amount of action is little or none - ideally 1 caller. 2 isn't bad, but I'd take zero over two.

Originally Posted by fasin8ing

Im new to ring and I just cant see raising with any two and c betting any old flop. I think the term was spewing chips in SNG's. Long term this cant be profitable. Maybe its ok HU, but how many times is this really going to happen? Will the pots you win outweight the amount of times you have done this and failed?

Yes, if you do an optimal percentage of the time, and in optimal situations. There's a theory of poker (I think this comes from Sklansky, and I know Dan Harrington talks about it) that says that to keep decent opponents on their toes, you should be raising pre-flop with crap and bluffing after the flop with nothing an optimal amount. If you only ever raise good hands and only ever bet post-flop when you have the goods, you're not a very creative player - and more to the point, any thinking player will demolish you. Basically, you're nut-camping. And this works OK in the lowest level SnG's and ring games, because there are a sufficient number of idiots to pay you off when you have a good hand. They won't notice that you're just waiting around for the nuts. But 6-max is not a waiting game. I throw at least one curveball every few orbits when I play 6-max. If the table is kind of weak and passive, I do it more often than that.

The important thing to remember is that the wins you score more than make up for the losses, as long as you're picking the right spots. (At a table full of very loose players, and/or out of position, is not the spot.) Just break it down. Let's say you're playing .25/.50 NL, and your standard raise is 4xBB ($2.00). The game is fairly tight, so when you raise you get one or zero callers most of the time. You've been raising enough that you start to get one caller more often than zero - because you're smart and aggressive, and taking advantage of the table that lets you walk over them. But that one caller is still not going to play with you post-flop without a strong hand. He wants to look you up, but he doesn't want to try to bluff you.

So to look at it from the math side - how much do you need to win to outweigh the occasional loss? If you steal blinds once and get one caller who folds to your c-bet twice, you've won 12.5 BB. How would a typical losing hand go? You raise and get re-raised a large amount and have to fold - that's a minimal loss (4 BB). You raise, get min-re-raised, call and then fold the flop - that's a reasonable loss (7 BB). You raise, get called, c-bet the flop, and get check-raised... that's the worst loss (roughly 11 BB based on a 2/3 pot c-bet). You could suffer one small and one medium loss here by my guesses, and offset that with a blind steal and two c-bet takedowns. You could only suffer one big loss (the check-raise), but still eke out a profit with the same. This completely ignores the possibility that sometimes your opponent will put up resistance but you'll win anyway, and rarely you'll destack someone with an unexpected flop... but that's another discussion. In a black-and-white world where you miss the flop every time, you still only need to win something like 2/3 of the pots (including some blind steals) to come out ahead on this move. I can only speak from experience at this point - at lower stakes (.15/.25 and .25/.50 NL especially) you're definitely going to win at least 2/3 of these pots, if you're picking the right tables and positions to do this.

Ever raise 25 offsuit 5xBB from UTG 10 handed? I did. I bluffed a high pocket off the pot postflop when an overcard hit, then I showed. I got action on every made hand after that for an hour.

You have to be capable of anything to tilt opponents. How do you show you're capable of anything?

Also, raising any two in position at 6max against tight opponents is +EV anyway.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Ever raise 25 offsuit 5xBB from UTG 10 handed? I did. I bluffed a high pocket off the pot postflop when an overcard hit, then I showed. I got action on every made hand after that for an hour.

You have to be capable of anything to tilt opponents. How do you show you're capable of anything?

This gets into another area that I didn't even bring up, which is table image - how to build one, and how to exploit it. Let's say I make four clearly -EV decisions, mostly involving bluffing people who have obviously good hands, or paying them off when they bet into me with top pair against my bottom pair/no kicker. If I lose $5 a pop for those four hands, but then manage to stack the guy for $50 when he overplays pocket jacks against my aces, because he thinks I'm the mega-donk, I've made a net profit of $30 - and it was set up by my bad plays earlier. Lots of great players talk about making one or two inane plays when they first sit at a table, because they know that when a good hand comes along later, they'll get paid on it. People forget that even the worst players get good hands. And when you are (in their eyes) a bluff-happy, super-aggressive donk, they'll practically fall all over themselves to pay off.

Dale and Rondavu you make awesome points and its all good. Players on Party move frequently, so to me it irrelevant how my image is. Most players on Party will not reload after they get destacked at the 25NL tables. You guys are playing at a higher level where the majority of the stuff you talked about matters in your game because the same people play those tables. Not saying its not important at ours, Iam saying making big bluffs and setting someone up is rare in my game. I may not see a PP at one table for maybe 20-30 hands. I may not see a premium hand for just as long. So long term, bluffing or semi bluffing with junk hands does me no justice if the opponent leaves.

I can destack someone playing premium hands without deception. Dale if your play is + EV and you lose 3 times and the guy gets up and leaves because someone with a set or something quality took his stack how is this + EV now? + EV is a positive expected value, in NL you are free to leave whenever you want and lose your stack whenever you want. Your saying you expect your -ev to turn into + ev but you cant make someone stay in the game, and you can' t make someone fold, and you cant choose what cards people get dealt. For me , your advice was that of a scholar for my tourny game. I agree with you there 100%.

Contrary to popular belief, it works at all levels. It makes you profit on higher stakes against good opponents, but it makes you absolutely slaughter lower stakes with bad players.

Actually fasin8ing, I'm mainly playing 25NL 6-max right now. I've spent plenty of time at the 50 and 100 levels where this is more important, but it applies at the 25 tables too - especially if you're at the right tables, with the right players. It's a question of feeling the ebb and flow of the game. You may only have half an hour to set up and properly exploit a table image, but I do it all the time. Obviously you wouldn't want to go out of your way to make multiple -EV plays as a setup, but I am not averse to making one quick head-scratcher if I feel the player on the receiving end - or (this is important) any other aware player at the table - might pay me off on something shortly thereafter. Conversely I'm also inclined to quickly build a very tight image (fold a lot of hands, fold a hand after raising with no c-bet, etc.) and then take advantage with a tricky bluff. Changing gears applies online, even at low stakes, but you have to understand who to use it against - and also that it has to be done more quickly, to take advantage of the table before the seats turn over.

Yes, you can do fine by playing good hands in a straightforward manner at 25 NL. But I guarantee you you can do better by throwing in at least a few surprises now and then - and you'll certainly be more prepared to move up to higher levels by practicing in when you feel the situation is right for it. Not every table, even at the lowest stakes, will be filled with loose/passive fish willing to dump their stacks on your sets and AA/KK, so sometimes you have to be more imaginative than that.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Contrary to popular belief, it works at all levels. It makes you profit on higher stakes against good opponents, but it makes you absolutely slaughter lower stakes with bad players.

That's very true. Consider that a lot of pretty bad players at 25 NL are not IQ-free piles of dogplop, but rather are barely aware players who can't let go of their good hands and have at least a rudimentary grasp of other players' table image. Here's a perfect, true example from the other day:

I called a raise with ATs from a player who had maybe $10 in his stack. The flop came ace high. I didn't have a good grasp on his raising range and I didn't feel like donating him $10 without more info, so I checked and called his flop c-bet. We both checked the turn, which was a queen or jack. The river brought another ace, so I led into him for his last $8 (way more than the pot, which was only $3 I think). He thought about it and folded, and then started complaining in the chat that I was a fish, and why was I overbetting the pot, etc. I mocked him and batted around the idea (in a subtle way) that I was bluffing.

Few hands later I got QQ. He raised again and I put him all in at light speed. He called, I busted him. He had something like A6 or A7.

Would that guy have donated the rest of his meager stack on this hand ordinarily? Possibly. But also likely is that it was the result of my image. He had me pegged as crazy, fishy, and bullying - so the next time I "bullied" him, he paid me off.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Contrary to popular belief, it works at all levels. It makes you profit on higher stakes against good opponents, but it makes you absolutely slaughter lower stakes with bad players.

I play with bad players... and lower stakes, 25 NL isnt high stakes to me and the players that I play with most of the time arent great. And I dont think I could ever play like this at a full table. You guys are both right, I will incorporate this into my game when its appropriate. Thanks for taking time out to examine this with me in great detail. It has seriously given me a better understanding on who, when , and how to implement this move in a poker hand. Thanks.

Worst head scratcher: 25NL

I am in BB with 63, unraised pot, maybe 3-4 to the flop (I was not really playing my 63).
Flop comes out somethin'. I dunno what, but it sure didn't hit no 63.

I check, MP limper bets $1 I misclick call.
Turn A, I check thinking I donated an extra buck to this guy, but he bets another $1.
That was so weak, I bluff raised him $8.
He calls, which is when I realized that he only has $5 behind in what is now a $25 pot that I can only win if he folds.
River is a blank...

I can put him all in, which he must call, and surely beat me. Or I can check/fold and save the $5.

I figured, $5 saved is $5 won, and there was a < 4:1 chance that he folds, so I checked, and he checked and showed me AX.

Ok so I can call this Bustin a Bluey now right, wait its not 6 8 suited. lol . Thanks for the advice, Iam weary .. But this could have very well made me a believer.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $5.91
Hero: $25
CO: $32.19
Button: $60.94
SB: $14.70
BB: $58.83

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 9 7
UTG folds, Hero raises to $1.25, 3 folds, BB raises to $3, Hero calls.

Flop: 8 5 K ($6.1, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.25, BB calls.

Turn: J ($8.6, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB raises to $4, Hero calls.

River: T ($16.6, 2 players)
BB bets $8, Hero raises all-in $18.5, BB calls.

Results:
Final pot: $53.6
BB shows Jh Js
Hero shows 9d 7d

Of course the outcome of that hand is partly due to this poor bastard getting caught with a hand he can't fold. But also notice that he has no reason to put you on a straight or flush, though both are quite possible from the board. He probably thinks, based on your line and especially your pre-flop raise, that you have a king with a good kicker. Even if he had something like KJ or KT he probably pays you off here. It's a beautiful thing.

Why do you keep betting 1/4 pot? And then he minraises it, lol.. he shoulda raised you for $12-$15.

you bet too weak fas

there's almost never a reason to bet the flop that small. If you are gonna bet, bet at least half the pot here. Since you were reraised, I might be inclined to checkfold this flop with no pair and gutshot.

Originally Posted by fasin8ing

Originally Posted by WildBobAA

It's very common to raise hands like this in 6 max....

I guess my question would be: If you raise with this and get callers is there any possible way you can put them on a range of hands? Also if you were to flip the script and use a hand like this 6 8s to call with wouldnt you say youd know better where you stand? It's not a raising nor calling hand IMO. Correct me if Iam wrong.

There's a massive difference between raising in position and calling a raise out of position.

So much so that if you don't already understand it, I probably couldn't help you.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Why do you keep betting 1/4 pot? And then he minraises it, lol.. he shoulda raised you for $12-$15.

SHOULDA being key here for this play... I think I was 4 tabling and seriously didnt even think about how I had hit a straight flush. I just realized this reviewing some hand histories and posted it. My screens are really small cause I dont have a big monitor. What was awesome is he had trip jacks and he min raised me .. I let him do this a couple times setting him up for that river card. Thats how I got paid. I have been limping PP's recently and then re raising people 3 X their raise. This has actually been working out to my benefit. I know villain has a huge hand if he reraises me or pushes so i can lay it down. Plus, when I C bet into my set if I hit or I dont ... They likely will fold or push. This is an awesome play in ring and I highly suggest it in a loose 25 NL ring game. Think of the confusion ....... Also they tend to back off a tad to setup draws if you dare to try this with connectors os/s-