The C/R sb bluff.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($125.90)
MP ($42)
Button ($103.65)
Hero ($113.45)
BB ($57.20)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, K.
3 folds, Hero raises to $3, BB calls $2.

Flop: ($6) 8, A, 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $3, Hero raises to $10, BB calls $7.

Turn: ($26) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $20, BB tanks forever before folding.



Fnord started a thread recently in a similar situation where he was BB, flopped bottom two and faced a C/R on the flop. The majority of people said fold, or reevaluate turn and fold to strength. Now I had been doing this line whenever people c/r my SB cbets in a blind war to counter their re-raise. But after hearing his reasons for folding and everyone's comment, I have added the SB raise PF, flop c/r against opponent who I know will almost always cbet if I check a blind war flop.

I really felt like this guy had some kind of hand that was tough to let go, maybe top pair with like a 7. But I had confidence he'd dump it considering the reactions Fnord's thread had.

What do you think?

The fact that you're asking a question on whether or not this is good makes it a spew, because the only reason you'd make this sort of play is if you understood it completely.

that line screams air to me.

Originally Posted by Trikflow77

that line screams air to me.

I don't necessarily think it's a bad play at these stakes.

what are u representing? AK ? AQ?

would u really play those hands this fast? u would be folding out all the weaker aces that u want value from.

thats what makes me tend to not believe this play

yeah i think i see this line most often from opponents fighting back at my cbets. I really don't like it against a thinking opponent as theres not much they can put you on and unless you have some special reason for doing this, i think this is mostly spew.

I'm going to ignore your first reply Iowa. I have a lot of reasons why I think it'll work plenty to be EV+, including your own answer from Fnord's thread.

The reason I post this is because of fnord's thread, notwhether or not I'm sure its a good play because I think in *this* situation it was.

I probably would not try this against a good player (but after seeing the responses in fnord's thread, a lot fo the regs on this board fold here too) , and I bet a lot of 400NL regs would sniff it out easy. But at 100NL most players fold here. I don't have a loose or wild image.

I could give my reasons to start the thread but I would like to hear what everyone thinks

But against the majority of the field this is a huge EV+ play

I think its something where a lot of people will put you on way too strong of a hand if they don't know your style of play.

Your flop play doesn't really make sens. A c/r being the PFR on that flop is just not logical. Wouldn't you just bet or c/c any good hand? hell..even any hand?

I think the play will work often yeah just because people fold to agression and villain probably doesn't want to play a big pot with his mediocre hand. A good player either folds the flop or calls the turn.

So it's +EV imo, but I don't like the reason why it is.

I think this really depends on the table dynamics. Against regs this is a cool play because they're folding so much and it loosens up a tight image into a trickier image and allows yourself to get more value from their 1-pair hands in the future when you actually have something.

Against non-regs with no metagame this line makes no sense, but it will probably force villain (if he's not a donkstation) to fold most hands. The only line that yours aligns itself with is a set, in which you'd often be c-betting an ace high board to try to get the money in. If I was villain in this hand with roughly A7 and you took this line I would maybe call turn and fold to river shove. What are you doing if he calls the turn?

Anyway, interesting situation I think. Also I've been drinking so this may make little sense. Gl!

I like this. If he re-pops on the flop, you give it up right? A check raise on the flop here can mean several good hands here, all of which beat any top pair. I like to see the aggression against a guy that you feel will lay down TPTK here. If he didn't seem capable of that, I would have to back off this one. I would not try this myself yet, because it is a play that is way out of my league, but I do like it.

I really don't like the flop c/r here. Only time I think it could be good is when hero is on a draw.

Well, the C/R isn't the full play MinSim. Since I'm first to act, it's a check, raise, then a quick near pot bet. I think most people, even if they sense something might be up, will fold this spot just because it's purely aggressive.

Did anyone see this thread (especially you minisim)?
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...250&highlight=

Totally different responses when Fnord is Villain, and Fnord gives it up with ISF agreeing its time to dump it! Nitfest in that thread I tell you. This same line Fnord dumps bottom two. but in this thread some act like my line is air and bad. har har

Just bet the flop and be done with the hand if he calls. I don't see the point in getting fancy in these small pots.