call this or not and why?

Villain is aggressive likes to bluff

***** Hand History for Game 2381121389 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, July 17, 21:09:57 EDT 2005
Table Table 54828 (6 max) (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: opwv_2009 ( $303.10 )
Seat 3: Qum01 ( $86 )
Seat 4: nostradamus9 ( $100 )
Seat 5: EvilEcstasy_ ( $134.10 )
Seat 6: VegasStu ( $403.30 )
Seat 1: DtchBoydFan1 ( $100 )
VegasStu posts small blind [$1].
DtchBoydFan1 posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to EvilEcstasy_ [ Qd Qs ]
opwv_2009 raises [$4].
Qum01 folds.
nostradamus9 folds.
EvilEcstasy_ raises [$12].
VegasStu folds.
DtchBoydFan1 folds.
opwv_2009 calls [$8].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, Ac, 5h ]
opwv_2009 checks.
EvilEcstasy_ checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3c ]
opwv_2009 bets [$25].
EvilEcstasy_ calls [$25].
** Dealing River ** [ 9s ]
opwv_2009 bets [$75].
EvilEcstasy_ ???

hi i would probably call. however, if he's a bluffer, i would have bet out on the flop hard. why did you decide not to do that, just curious? i would be enough to chase out any low Ax. If he called he either has a high ace kicker that is good but not great or maybe a draw to the straight, and if he raised, i would expect to see 2pr or even a deuce for the straight already.

i want to know where those ladies stand against the flopped ace right away. if i'm beat already, i want out early and if he's drawing i wanna make him overpay to do it.

Originally Posted by alias2211

hi i would probably call. however, if he's a bluffer, i would have bet out on the flop hard. why did you decide not to do that, just curious? i would be enough to chase out any low Ax. If he called he either has a high ace kicker that is good but not great or maybe a draw to the straight, and if he raised, i would expect to see 2pr or even a deuce for the straight already.

i want to know where those ladies stand against the flopped ace right away. if i'm beat already, i want out early and if he's drawing i wanna make him overpay to do it.

Betting out the flop hard accomplishes absolutely nothing. He calls if he has an ace, and calls if he has a draw. I find out no information at all.

Not sure my play there but why didn't you bet the flop? It seems that you have no read because you played it passive on the flop and turn.

Why did you check the flop and call the turn?

Edit: I disagree that betting the flop gets no information. A weak A may fold, a strong A will likely call. A draw is unlikely with such low cards but he may call. Everything else would likely fold. Since you have position, you can then watch his bet on the turn to decide if he's drawing. By not betting on the flop you let any hand that was worrying about the A come in for a free ride. A bet on the flop is crucial here, especially against a bluffer.

Originally Posted by spino1i

Betting out the flop hard accomplishes absolutely nothing. He calls if he has an ace, and calls if he has a draw. I find out no information at all.

Him: $4
You: raise $8 to $12
Him: calls $8

at this point there is $27 in the pot for the flop.

Flop:

him: check
you: check



Turn:

Him: bets pot $25
You: call pot $25

My point is that if you're willing to call a pot sized bet on the turn after a card falls that does nothing for your own hand's improvement but presents a club flush draw AND allows a hand like Ace/deuce to improve to a straight, you would have been better served by leveraging your position and forcing him to call without the improvement that might come from that 3c. This is especially true against the agressives: they like to bet into others, not be bet into themselves.

1. If you a rereraised there, he's probably not bluffing, or he's looking to pulloff the old free card play because of the draw he is on, or because he wants to see how much you like that ace you might have. Aggresssive bluffers players don't bluff by calling, they bluff by betting and reraising.

2. If he calls your $25 bet on the flop, and he IS on a draw, then you want him to make this play in the long run. This is a profitable situation for you.

3. In a way, playing aggressively out of the flop when you have position is also a way for YOU to get lucky and find a queen for free on the river by getting the free card play in yourself. If you bet pot on river and he calls, then you can check behind his check on the turn, and you have effectively made the same play as betting $12 and then another $12, This would seem really weak to an agressive player who is WAITING for you to show weakness.

Since this isn't a passive player, what you don't want to do is give him ANY reason to think that the Ace/weak kicker he has is good at ANY point in the hand. Against a passive player/calling station, betting $25 will not do any more good than just making a modest 1/2 pot bet, as you'll get called either way.

If he has any ace of any sort, there is no getting him out of the hand. He will call me down with his whole stack, regardless of the kicker.

If I bet the flop and then check behind the turn, he makes the 75$ dollar bet on the river still and im left in the same dillema.

Originally Posted by spino1i

If he has any ace of any sort, there is no getting him out of the hand. He will call me down with his whole stack, regardless of the kicker.

If this is literally true, why not wait for a spot where you have his Ax outkicked and take all his money with much more confidence that you have the best hand?

I understand calling this bet if either he is a complete maniac (high chance of having the best hand definitely justifies the call), or you might not get to play a big pot against him again (even if the call is marginal, a slight edge might be all you get against him, and you want a slightly EV but high variance decision).

Against people who love to push you off decent hands, sometimes I find allowing it to happen a few times to be a good strategy: Lose four small pots and win a huge fifth one.