can we discuss short stack vs full buy in theory ???

Been a long while since I posted...I read about this forum almost daily..TIA for all the good advice...long story short..I had a great week of poker suffering from kidney stones...Anyway still hurting....I tripled my bankroll last week in two days playing my nut peddling 25 nl table ways ..really got into the game 2 or 3 tabling...I got brave & doubled the stakes I played at & promplty lost 4 buy ins...yuck/DONK...I suffered from two problems I felt I was in over my head..& I disrespected some short buyin stacks ....I got my aces & str8s cracked plenty for obvious reasons...timid play letting them draw...couple of lucky draw outs to possible flushs that should not have called preflop my allin bets...I saw a pattern develop that I want you all to comment on....Is it correct play to buy in short say 7 to 10 on 25 table or 11 at a 50 & take your chances when you can see the flop with rank 5 & 6 hands catch something & then push ??? I cracked aces twice [something I usually never do] but because I was short stacked & out of position I called from the BB say the extra dollar to see the flop & got lucky...67 made me a 4 str8 56 brought me 2 prs...in both cases I checked to the raiser waited for the C-BET & pushed allin...This is something I never do with a full stack or double..but in both of these cases having 7 to 12 left in front..I got calls & really made money...This also had the benifit of tilting the big ACES/Kings & made my nut peddling monsters easier after that....I can play my best poker for 6 to 8 hours & be lucky to triple the buyin...But short it seems I can double up or triple up quickly & get away with a nice profit....CAN WE TALK ABOUT THIS STLYE OF ONLINE PLAY....help me out, thanks again...mike in ct

FYI, that made my eyes hurt trying to read that. Break that out into paragraphs or something.

I read about 70% of it. I'm guessing that some of it is variance and most of it is your mis-bets (giving too good of odds).

I keep seeing these guys running around.... 5 dolllar come ins , playing fast & doubling up....Last clown was 2 to go every hand & he would push to re-raises...his worst play was Jack 3 off played that ' HAND' twice & won both times...something here just does not make sense...Hell I'm nervous playing a king 8 sooted out of position...Anyone ever try to see any logic or are these guys just bad gamboolers??? mike

Mike, if you can't see that these people will boost your roll 99% of the times you come up against them then you seriously need to tweak your game! You obviously can't put them on exact cards, but you can put them on a range - it's then pretty simple to just re-raise them when you have a hand that comfortably beats their range, which could be as low as AJ or 77. If you happen to lose, then hell, they're still short - you can bust them next time.

I know that a maniac short stack can add to the profits but my question is " Do solid good players have a natural tendency to not respect an all in bet from a short stack ?" The reason I ask is I see these guys getting called some are truly nits/donks..But every so often one comes along & gets you or two or three other players involved & they get a huge pay-off....I did some time playing short & it was much easier to get the big stacks to call when I held AA or KK ...Can anyone speak about the merits of a tight then aggressive manner of play when one only having say 1/3 of a buyin infront??..I have a friend who never buys in full & we have been debating this for years....mike in ct

I made 6 buyins yesterday buying in for half, doubling and leaving.

And my AA is negative. As is my KK.

People do very, very stupid things when you buy in short.

buying in short at 25NL is weak - weak br is usually a sign of a weak player - I think the short stack ninja technique at higher levels are different stories - Do I give short stackers respect? No - If they are buying short for $7-10 absolutely not - Does that mean i play any 2 cards against them? NO - It means that I don't play drawing hands vs them cause i get no implied odds - I don't play small pairs for sizeable raises because they don't have squat to pay me off with when I hit - However, I will open push them with big cards and/or big hands....

then again, I find that they tend to stay away from me, not the other way around - Dominate the table, get up a couple buy ins...Then laugh your ass off when they are bitching about you hitting a gutshot draw on them because they only had $2 behind them....

bottom line is that they are easy money - don't make yourself easy money - A typical short stack is waiting to push in - Play with them when you have 10's+ and then raise them with anything decent when they try to limp in...they really are easy to play with - and even when they beat you it doesn't cost you much - be happy they are at your table...they are your prey

That is a terribly misguided viewpoint.

Edit: I should add I'm talking about verse opponents who buy in short, not buy in minimum, as poster was talking about.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

That is a terribly misguided viewpoint.

Edit: I should add I'm talking about verse opponents who buy in short, not buy in minimum, as poster was talking about.

at 25NL the shorties are not 'verse' opponents...I think if you can win 6 buy ins playing short at 25NL, you are really losing 6 more buy ins by not playing full - Now, for higher levels, sure - short stack ninja has been done by various other players around here...But most of the shorties i see at 25NL are on their last legs...They aren't some mastermind playing 25NL trying to "take you" - 100NL, 200NL? Sure - but not that low - 95% they are on the very last of their money....

then again, depends on your definition of shorties - $18+ is not a shortie in my book - but anything less then 1/2 a buy in is a short stack...

i did a pretty extensive experiment into shortstacking this summer. it is harder than it looks but it can be profitable. it's not a weak way to play, i used to think that, but it isn't. i did it at $200nl-1000nl so consider that when you read this post.

when someone buys in for the minimum (usually 20BBs on most sites), they basically turn their active hands into the last few rounds of an MTT: push/fold. against these players, you want the money to go in PF, and they're usually happy to comply. any pair, any two face cards. you want to win races and coin flips. there is no strategy to this. push em in if you have 22 or j10. and cbet the flop if they just happen to smooth call your PF raises, even if you miss. don't be afraid of minstacks, if you double them up, they still only have 40BBs. and if they happen to get doubled up a few times and stick around (i.e. are not a ninja) they often don't know how to play postflop well enough to beat you at the fullstack game that you're used to.

against shortstacks (40-60BBs) more strategy starts to creep in because most players don't want to play for ~50BBs PF w/o good hands. so you tighten up your range a little bit and don't feel obligated to get all in PF. the flop is usually important street against this amount of BBs. look at it like this: there are 3 BBs in the pot from blinds, you raise 4BBs and shorty calls you. that makes ~15BBs in the pot, and him with ~35BBs behind. you certainly don't want to call draws on the flop unless you have tons of outs, because the implied odds are shot to hell (if you hit, you don't get paid well enough for making an 'incorrect' call). in my experience, if shorties hit the flop whatsoever (or miss horribly) they're just trying to get you in a tough position by forcing you to make really tough calls on overbets that are massive and abnormal compared to the normal flop size bets you get out of full (100-150BBs) or deep (150+BBs)stacks. don't get in the business of calling down w/ draws vs. shorties. look and wait for better spots.

it is MUCH easier to play shortstack than minstack because of the pressure they can apply on the flop. i probably lost $3k minstacking, but on shortstacking i was able to hold my own. (it was money well spent from the insight i gained in dealing with you shortstacking fuckers lol) i specifically remember the relief i felt from being enabled to play post flop as shortstack compared to minstack (i did a few weeks as minstack, then bumped up to a few weeks of shortstack).

minstackers would be better off just playing MTTs. shortstackers are different and they have a place in cash games.

Good post alias. I'm running something like 12ptbb/100 shorstacking. Why? Because people are doing exactly what you say -not- to do. Drawing without implied odds, mostly. Theyre also perfectly happy to go all in against me with TPTK.