Changing up my threebarrels.

Opp is 25/15, who tends to raise the flop with his good hands, plays like a solid tagg.
PokerStars Game #9308042653: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2007/04/07 - 22:23:21 (ET)
Table 'Fragaria II' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: margis ($43.30 in chips)
Seat 2: leetenkey ($219.95 in chips)
Seat 3: P0KERB0Y ($202.55 in chips)
Seat 4: CarlosNL ($23.15 in chips)
Seat 5: redgrape ($206 in chips)
Seat 6: Papa Lou ($213.55 in chips)
margis: posts small blind $1
leetenkey: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [4h 4d]
P0KERB0Y: folds
CarlosNL: folds
redgrape: raises $6 to $8
Papa Lou: folds
margis: folds
leetenkey: calls $6
*** FLOP *** [Td 8h Qh]
leetenkey: checks
redgrape: bets $12
leetenkey: calls $12
*** TURN *** [Td 8h Qh] [8c]
leetenkey: checks
redgrape: bets $28
leetenkey: calls $28
*** RIVER *** [Td 8h Qh 8c] [3s]
leetenkey: checks
redgrape: bets $158 and is all-in

Every time you post a bluff a few people get horrified so I thought I'd be the first one to chime in this time.

Seriously though I think hands like this one are kind of boring on their own, but they're much more interesting if you go into why you chose this time to three-barrel him. I mean, obviously your reasoning is that he's not check-calling 2 streets with a hand that can call this shove, but also obviously, you're not just blasting away every time you're in a similar spot vs. a similar type of player. How do you make sure that your three-barrel range is well-balanced?

You make me feel like an old guy that shakes his head at the crazy shenanigans of young kids.

the turn bet is bad because of his range

Originally Posted by mcatdog

How do you make sure that your three-barrel range is well-balanced?

I pretty much don't.
I don't think people at 200nl read well enough to realize im three barreling so much to the point that they have to call here with TP, which is how im exploiting them. Truthfully, i may do this 90% of the time in this similar spot versus similar type of player.

Here, versus a fishy i actually am overbetting the river with the nuts.

I'm just wondering what people think of the overbet rather than a normaly 3/4ths to pot bet.

Originally Posted by gabe

the turn bet is bad because of his range

I was going to attempt to refute this but you're right.
What do you think of riv bet?

#1: Has he seen you shove for value before?

#2: What's your image?

#3: Does a 25/15 3bet JJ from the blinds?

#4: Why in the world are you choosing this card to bluff?

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

#1: Has he seen you shove for value before?

#2: What's your image?

#3: Does a 25/15 3bet JJ from the blinds?

#4: Why in the world are you choosing this card to bluff?

#1 nope

#2 tagg prob, its only been a few hands at this table, although i have more from previous

#3 no doubt

#4 its safe and he clearly doesn't have better than at best tpwk.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

#1: Has he seen you shove for value before?

#2: What's your image?

#3: Does a 25/15 3bet JJ from the blinds?

#4: Why in the world are you choosing this card to bluff?

4- he chose that card because it didnt improve any of the guys likely holdings

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

#1: Has he seen you shove for value before?

#2: What's your image?

#3: Does a 25/15 3bet JJ from the blinds?

#4: Why in the world are you choosing this card to bluff?

4- he chose that card because it didnt improve any of the guys likely holdings

Problem is it also looks like a card that could not possibly improve any of our holdings. Therefore, if we are being put on a draw then this looks horribly bluffy. Secondly, if he was drawing then betting this amount does really nothing for us. What does shoving project that value betting 2/3 pot wouldn't? Are we only shoving so we cannot get c/r'ed AI?

I wrote a bunch, but it boiled down to "I dunno"

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

#1: Has he seen you shove for value before?

#2: What's your image?

#3: Does a 25/15 3bet JJ from the blinds?

#4: Why in the world are you choosing this card to bluff?

4- he chose that card because it didnt improve any of the guys likely holdings

Problem is it also looks like a card that could not possibly improve any of our holdings. Therefore, if we are being put on a draw then this looks horribly bluffy. Secondly, if he was drawing then betting this amount does really nothing for us. What does shoving project that value betting 2/3 pot wouldn't? Are we only shoving so we cannot get c/r'ed AI?

How many times at these stakes do you...
1. see Someone overbet as a bluff?
2. See someone hero call an overbet?

Answer: Never

I overbet because i think he can call a normal bet with tpmk. However, I'm not sure it matters so much to make an overbet here better. Hence the post.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I wrote a bunch, but it boiled down to "I dunno"

This happens me a lot.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I don't think people at 200nl read well enough to realize im three barreling so much

Some people play higher than 200 NL in addition to playing 200 NL. leetenkey fits this description. I know I've played 400 with him and possibly 600 as well.

O rly?

Just saying you shouldn't necessarily make plays on your opponents based on the stakes you are playing...

I like the river bluff. His most likely holdings are QJ KQ(also KJ and flush draw which you are beating anyhow) assuming he reraises TT QQ AQ most of the time preflop. He will find it hard to call with those hands if your image is somewhat solid.

i feel as if i cant even respond to this thread as with my image at 600nl i cant imagine someone folding any pair ever to any of my bets, especially if im not repping anything really concrete. So i dont like it i guess, but that doesnt mean its not good.

I like it too, even though it's a sorta obvious spot to 3 barell, it's just a tough call if you have a decent image, since like u said not many overbets are bluffs.

adjusting and stuff might be tricky, like if someone catches you then next time should prob be for value (or maybe it'll be an even better time to 3barell?), and you might need to distinguish opps, even ones with tag like stats, who are likely to lay down top pair from those who cant.

also, what do you guys mean the turn bet is bad? i dont think it's that bad if it sets up a river bluff. i just wouldnt expect it to succeed without the 3rd barrel.

Originally Posted by benny999

also, what do you guys mean the turn bet is bad? i dont think it's that bad if it sets up a river bluff. i just wouldnt expect it to succeed without the 3rd barrel.

gabe pointed out that the turn was bad, and i realized its because if a 9, T, J, Q or Heart shows up we really can't bet this river. And that's around 20 cards.

yea turn is def spew city

Originally Posted by gabe

the turn bet is bad because of his range

Why because he can be floating with an 8?

people dont make hero calls i like it, not often though


butsecks?

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Originally Posted by gabe

the turn bet is bad because of his range

Why because he can be floating with an 8?

bump

anyone?

I think he said it because you know he's calling the turn so you are pretty much wasting a bet.

yea, tons of hands that hit the flop still like their hand on turn because they probably still have outs to improve (QJ JT J9 KJ flush draws)

I'm so money

depending on your image and history I think this is either really good or really bad.

The only thing I don't get is what opp thinks you can have if you check the turn? The only thing we are repping by checking the turn is an underpair or AK unimproved isn't it? Let's say I have AQ or KQ on this board and the turn goes check/check I'm inclined to look your river push up. However, after betting the turn I would lay it down on the river.

I don't think anyone is advocating a bet/check/overbet line, although i dont think anyone has ruled it out. But to me that looks way too bluffy.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I don't think anyone is advocating a bet/check/overbet line, although i dont think anyone has ruled it out. But to me that looks way too bluffy.

Yeah didn't read the replies properly. I think your line works against some opponents but standard would be check turn and check behind on river. Your line also works best if others don't have a read on you.

Yeah the turn bet is spew.

With that said, this river shove is good. He will almost never have anything better than a bluff catcher here, given most strong hands would raise the flop on such a drawy board.

Originally Posted by gabe

yea, tons of hands that hit the flop still like their hand on turn because they probably still have outs to improve (QJ JT J9 KJ flush draws)

DO all the draws not regularly call the flop and fold the turn unimproved because they know they ain't getting odds?

I don't think anyone at this level will fold those draws to a PSB.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Originally Posted by gabe

yea, tons of hands that hit the flop still like their hand on turn because they probably still have outs to improve (QJ JT J9 KJ flush draws)

DO all the draws not regularly call the flop and fold the turn unimproved because they know they ain't getting odds?

they can still think they have odds if they think the hero's range is wider than usual

this is a textbook board NOTTTTTTTTTT to 2nd barrel. Before you go firing 2nd and even 3rds make make sure your bet has fold equity based on his range and what he percieves you could have.

Originally Posted by YeaURBad

this is a textbook board NOTTTTTTTTTT to 2nd barrel.

Thanks but you're a little late... we already established that.

Welcome to the forum though!

im still stating my opinion before I read responses. So yeah thanks for welcome feel free to challenge me HU4rollz.

Originally Posted by YeaURBad

im still stating my opinion before I read responses. So yeah thanks for welcome feel free to challenge me HU4rollz.

lol right.... seems like your a MSNL players from 2p2 who came over when the forums were down amirite?