check-raising Genitruc style

heres a follow up to a post from Genitruc in the "4 common situation" thread. basically, saying how he plays AK from the blinds against a LP raiser and why.

it fits my style well and i wanted to show some "fruits of the labor" because of the porthole to "levelling" it can open up against specific villains. this is a 3 hand series with the same villain...a SLAGgy opponent who seems to get pissy when he cant RUN OVER the table at will.

hand one.

i thought the gutter was worth a shot at the c/r here because i didnt have complete air, and hadnt played with villain before. basically, i wanted to see just how powerful this move could be on a board like this.

Absolute Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP ($14.15)
CO ($31.50)
Button ($23.70)
SB ($33.10)
Hero ($24.40)
UTG ($9.55)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
1 fold, MP calls $0.25, CO raises to $1.25, 2 folds, Hero calls $1, MP folds.

Flop: ($2.85) , , (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.5, Hero raises to $7.75, CO folds.

Final Pot: $5.85


hand two... this likely misses his range, too, but i only have 6 outs, and they missed, and the pot is getting rather large w/ him RRing. after the hand, he says, "stop cring me." i say, "lol." he says, "its annoying." i say, "good." and we leave it at that. this is where i know i've got him, obv.

Absolute Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG ($14.15)
MP ($28.95)
Button ($32.65)
Hero ($28.40)
BB ($10.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
1 fold, MP raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.90, 1 fold.

Flop: ($2.25) , , (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $1.35, Hero raises to $4.6, MP raises to $10.9, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $11.45

we dance around for another half an hour before getting anything worth playing. but, obv, neither one of us has forgotten about what was said.

hand three...say what you want about all of the money going in here regardless, and i agree, but this is what it CAN do. he was so quick to snap -raise me here, i figured he was waiting for me to do it again. and he was not only sold on his Q (he had QT), but he was giving me NO credit for have a better one. he does this, i guarantee, with an overpair, too. and that effectively makes it easier for me to get a stack when i hold a great hand w/o having to take multiple streets to do it.

Absolute Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG ($12.90)
MP ($36.10)
CO ($5.65)
Button ($24.40)
Hero ($19.60)
BB ($26.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
1 fold, MP raises to $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, Hero calls $0.90, 1 fold.

Flop: ($3.25) , , (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $1.75, Button folds, Hero raises to $5.15, MP raises to $10.75, Hero raises to $18.5, MP calls $7.85.

Turn: ($40.35) (2 players)

River: ($40.35) (2 players)

Final Pot: $40.35

granted, my stack wasnt full (dammit). i had just noticed that when i completed the blind. i usually buy in for at least $30 at these tables, too. i had planned on filling on the next hand since i just missed it here. sometimes shit happens.

hand 1: your check raise size is too big.

hand 2: 3bet preflop

hand 3: 3bet preflop

see aforementioned thread for the reason i didnt 3bet.

1) waste of money, just lead and villain folds with less monies risked almost as often. the re-raise is also unnecessarily large

2) waste of monies, you can either call or fold here but it seems spewy to raise

3) you were both stacking here and there was no setup necessary. Cards reversed, you auto stack here too

Not trying to be rude, but I just think you are heavily overvaluing the 'setup' thing here as a result of hand 3, which isnt really a setup.

Originally Posted by Chopper

see aforementioned thread for the reason i didnt 3bet.

yeah and your giving up value by not 3betting AK there. he thinks its easier to play that way maybe thats because hes had bad variance or something 3betting AK out of the blinds.

chopper the situation discussed in the thread was vs a tight opener UTG

ak isn't a big favourite over his range which is part of the reason for the deceptive play I suggested

that being said, imo there's nothing *wrong* with playing these hands the way you did

but you could've prob gotten more money in the pot with the best hand by 3-betting preflop in hands 2 and 3

One of the reasons for pulling the AK flat-call preflop CR flop line is because is simply plays better vs a tight opener's EP range. Vs a lagg's LP range it loses much of its purpose since their range is so wide, we don't have great implied odds when we hit (even if we play our hand deceptively) and it'll be hard to put villain on a hand without 3-betting.

The hand I like the least here is hand 2. Flop is so draw-heavy that an aggro will be getting it in VERY light esp if you guys have a history of you CR him.

i dont think you guys are grasping the concept of why he does this. either that, or you dont like that he does it at all.

sorry, for the snipe, EZ, i noticed you were in the other thread, too.

3betting AK, i dont like to do. (i know its bad that i dont, but i spew big time when i do it)

i dont want to seem "rebellious" or "closed-minded," but i dont see any thoughtful explanation as to why its bad.

give me some detailed thought as to why these were bad, like Genitruc did to defend HIS thoughts, and i will listen with open ears.

Not 3-betting AK from a 20/12 TAGG at 200NL raising UTG: good

Not 3-betting AK at 25 NL almost always: not good.

Hand 1: your c/r is just way too big. And this flop has most likely hit him so he's probably going to call your c/r with any TP.

Hand 2: why are you bluffing with approx 0 outs?

Hand 3: no one is laying down a Q here anyway this has nothing to do with image.

Originally Posted by Massimo

Hand 2: why are you bluffing with approx 0 outs?

i have 6, dont i? what do you see that i dont? theres no way you, or anyone else, can put him on AA or KK from only his pfr and flop bet. if he has QQ for an overpair here, i have 6 outs. if he has a set, i dont know this until he RRes my c/r...in which case i drop the hand...which i did.

and he only raised my c/r because he saw me do it before, and wanted to "play back." this was the only time i didnt fold villain off in the 5-6 times i have c/red the flop after flat calling a raise from a lp pf.

even if it is 0 outs, he drops this to a c/r w/o a really strong hand, right? so, mission accomplished. when i have "0" outs, the only way to win the hand is to blow villain out.

I don't understand the 3Bet in position, the 3Bet from AK either pushes people off of their AceX or initiates a coin flip. I never do it in position unless I need/want to isolate, because I win more from AK vs their AceX then I do from pushing people off of their Ace or coin flipping. I do understand it out of position, the 3Bet is to gain the initiative in order to off set the opponent's position or feign a resteal, at which point betting the Ace after the flop or check-raising the Ace is profitable, and even if you miss, you can still CBet or check raise based off of the initiative.

What is the logic of the 3Bet in position? Abusing Deep vs Shallow Stacks or forcing the Short Stack to risk his stack on AX or PP? I just don't see a need to force a fold, coin flip or risk getting stacked from a small set after a flat call when Deep vs Deep Stack in position.

Do people have the PT stats to show that the 3Bet in position has made them more $ via folding than flat calling into AQ? Don't count the coin flips, because I'm willing to wager that those coin flips are either leaking or being forfeited in cash games to 4Bet felts.

I don't even agree with re-raising a Rock with AK, if you're afraid of AA-KK either drop the hand or see the flop. For all you know, he 4Bet felts AK out of position, bets Kings into Aces or you pick up flush and straight draws. You have good IV with a flat call and terrible EV with a re-raise, so if you're putting him on Kings, why would you re-raise him instead of seeing the flop for cheap, and if you're putting him on Aces, why aren't you folding?

Originally Posted by Massimo

Hand 2: why are you bluffing with approx 0 outs?

ya villain's range is obviously just AA here

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Massimo

Hand 2: why are you bluffing with approx 0 outs?

ya villain's range is obviously just AA here

please tell me you guys are being sarcastic here.

i thought overpair or set, for sure. but, there is no way it cant be KK or 999. if you were serious, tell me why.

but, either way, if you guys are recommending no c/r there, how can you tell you are even beat, yet? when you call his raise pf, you dont know its AA. when you only call his flop bet, you cant know its AA. you cant even know its an overpair, as a whiffed AK does the same thing to that point.

a donk bet in hand two would have been less expensive. and i am finding it has the same effect at 25 as the c/r. so, since flat calling and donk betting is less expensive, and only gets raised over when beat...why spend the extra money when these clowns cant lay down TP, much less an overpair? (thats one i would like to see Genitruc respond to, too.)

that "move" may need either more testing or may be ineffective at 25 given the call stations. or maybe only should be used against "known" aggros.

pretty sure max meant that diamond A or K is potentially a bad card and villain can be betting A9 or A7 so we're not sure which outs are good

also almost 100% sure martin was sarcastic

ya keeping the AK cr move to ppl who you know is prob good advice

thx, Gen.

i dont mean to "diss" the others. others: i'm not.

but, i wanted to hear it straight from the horse's mouth.

and, mass, if you meant what Gen is saying about A7 or A9, please say so next time instead of saying "0 outs" and leaving it at that. some of us need to have it spelled out for us...still.

but that said, i still think A7 and A9 fold to the c/r at a 25NL table, especially A7. they certainly dont RR, imo.

in all seriousness, thanks to all of you. i have learned a good bit from this thread.

one thing that helped me a lot Chopper was a flame-fest that came about once regarding gabe giving one-line replies

basically there was an argument about lazy replies vs ppl using their own abilities to understand a reply

in some spots it s really important to spell out why you think what you think

but some pretty well-respected posters reply in as many threads as possible and it becomes impossible to always be detailed

so in general, when i respect somebody's thinking and posting I try to just imagine what their reasoning could possibly be, even if it s a cheap one-liner. that excercise is one of the things that has helped me the most as a player. i m thinking esp of someone like Max, who replies to a bazillion threads...

The problem with hand 2 is that his range from the CO could be almost anything, so the C/R is going to seem like a semi-bluff to him because you aren't going to C/R a set there (are you?) and the best you could have is either a draw, a PP that missed its set, a SC that paired or an Ace high where the PP, pair or Ace high "should" have been bet to price a draw. You didn't narrow his range, you didn't give your C/R any credibility and you were goading him with it before.

Don't get me wrong, it's an interesting idea for AXs and Ace high, SCs and a pair and PPs that miss their set, but the idea there is to see whether or not the BB is interested in joining in at a discount, and if he isn't, then resteal from the CO/Button with a semi-bluff. With AK/AQ you do not want to let the BB in, so 3Bet and either avoid the whole problem or CBet, C/R with some credibility. Their SCs/PPs may/may not come along for 9/12xBBs and 21/20/AXs are going into the muck, which leaves AA-JJ/AK to go over the top, or AK to flat call, but that's not a consideration in this case. You're paying the least amount of money in the long run to either win the pot or figure out where you're at by raising now compared to doing it with a C/R on the flop or three rounds of betting.

I agree with the move, I just don't agree with the hand the move was made with. To complicate matters even more, I'd consider C/C on the flop and then C/R on the turn, because that just screams set, 2pair, made draw or monster draw and the line is far more believable. Calling and then C/Ring that flop says I'm semi-bluffing a draw to me, so if he has anything, he has to price you out with it. AceXo does stay in that hand, because you don't C/R sets, you don't flat call with an over pair and the worst case scenario is 2 pair that can be counterfeited with a 30% redraw.

An OP call followed with a C/R on the flop is a sign of a semi-bluff, an OP call followed by a C/C on the flop and a C/R on the turn is a sign of a made hand, an OP raise followed with a C/R on the flop is either a sign of strength or a well disguised semi-bluff. If you're going to call there, then either Donk it up with Bet Pot and win the hand with the least amount of chips invested or stall, Min Bet, and after a real raise, snap re-raise them. This checks to see whether or not the Check/Fold or Fold button is on to auto-win the pot, and if it isn't, they see weakness, and then you show them "strength" or give them a "free" card. On the turn, you can either make your hand, Min Bet again to try and win the hand for as little as possible and then Re-re-raise or show them another "free" card. On The River, Bet Pot bluffs a made hand, or you can just Min Bet/Check and have the best hand, look like a Donk or both.

I don't disagree with the OP call and the C/R persay, but with that board, you were saying "I am on a draw" when you didn't want to. The stall, Min Bet, Re-re-raise strategy has a lot of merit, because it gives you two ways to win the pot compared to the C/R for the same amount of chips. I'd never do it IRL, but I'm at the point where I feel I need to trade mark it online it's making me so much $

Also, don't feel bad about raising "with 0 outs there," if you're objective is to get the opponent to fold his hand, it doesn't matter how many outs you have. It's not like he's going to flat call you there or you're going to go all in with him if he felts any way, so who cares? Remember, the difference between a TAGG and a LAGG is that a TAGG has to ask himself how he is going to win this hand, when all a LAGG has to ask himself is how he is going to get his opponent to fold this hand.

Originally Posted by Genitruc

pretty sure max meant that diamond A or K is potentially a bad card and villain can be betting A9 or A7 so we're not sure which outs are good

Yes this is what i'm saying, i was exaggerating when i said approx 0 outs. Also take into account that some of the time he's making the decision on the flop so sometimes your outs wil be utterly worthless.

yes chopper it was sarcasm on my part