Clicked it back, then some crap went down

What do you make of this? Villain is solid TAgg, seemed to raise and 3-bet a very standard range.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($10.55)
UTG ($27.10)
Hero ($69.65)
CO ($25)
Button ($33.50)
SB ($18.30)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A, K.
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.75, 1 fold, Button raises to $2.9, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.15.

Flop: ($6.15) A, Q, 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $4.5, Button raises to $9, Hero raises to $13.5, Button raises to $30.6 (All-In)....

well youre not clicking it back to fold. he can have a draw. also some people just go crazy so.

no idea what he has but I call really fast

yeah this could a lot of stuff and I'm snap calling.

I don't think you can fold now so I call.
(I probably go for check raise on flop though as opposed to lead & isn't min 3bet (clicking it back) a mistake if he has a flush draw?)

Originally Posted by noble007

I don't think you can fold now so I call.
(I probably go for check raise on flop though as opposed to lead & isn't min 3bet (clicking it back) a mistake if he has a flush draw?)

Possibly so, though I don't think he 3bet me with anything pre-flop that has a flush draw on this board, since I have the Kh especially.

Honestly guys, what's villain stacking off with here?

Board: Ad Qh 4h

Wins Ties Equity
54.88% 17.05% 71.93% ( AhJh,AA,QQ,AK,AQ )
11.02% 17.05% 28.07% ( AsKh )

dont click it back if u decide to fold when u get the response u actually wanted ... your hand has value so u clicked it back to induce a raise ... this is what u wanted, u must call.

not clicking it back at 25nl might be more optimal than anything else though.

..

uhmm, "clicked it back"?

Originally Posted by dev

uhmm, "clicked it back"?

dude

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...hi-t68048.html

Originally Posted by Ash256

Honestly guys, what's villain stacking off with here?

Board: Ad Qh 4h

Wins Ties Equity
54.88% 17.05% 71.93% ( AhJh,AA,QQ,AK,AQ )
11.02% 17.05% 28.07% ( AsKh )

Given the read I think a preflop 3bet with AJ seems unlikely.

Originally Posted by Ash256

Honestly guys, what's villain stacking off with here?

Board: Ad Qh 4h

Wins Ties Equity
54.88% 17.05% 71.93% ( AhJh,AA,QQ,AK,AQ )
11.02% 17.05% 28.07% ( AsKh )

That's what I was thinking too, and I think AJ is a remote possibility at best - villain was probably not 3-betting that light. By the way that wasn't just guesswork, I had 50 or so hands with him and his stats were running right in the TAgg sweet spot. If I remember right it was low 20s VPIP, high teens PF raise, and about 5 for 3-bet.

About the CiB - I'm still new to this thing. In this case I wasn't trying to provoke the reaction I got. Rather I was trying to see how serious he was about the hand, and if he flatted that raise I was planning to value bet turn and maybe river (barring catastrophic additions to the board, natch). I understand its use that way vs. hyper-agg types, but this guy was not, and that wasn't the objective. When he pushed it gave me serious pause. Possibly this was the wrong place for it - like I said, I'm new to the whole concept.

Originally Posted by Marshall28

not clicking it back at 25nl might be more optimal than anything else though.

Yeah, I'm considering that possibility.

By the way, I am open to criticism and line suggestions on this whole thing. I think pre-flop is about standard vs. this type of player, but I'd like to hear about the rest. What is ideal? Check-raise flop? Gimme a line. I dislike these situations the most - very good hand with some value relative to the board, but in a 3-bet pot, out of position... makes me very uncomfortable. I think I run some very odd lines in these spots and I'd like to stop doing so.

If he's capable of bluff-raising the flop here, you can push over his raise or c-bet bigger and fold to a push.

As it stands he probably plays AK this way, and that's the only hand that doesn't have you crushed. It's his most likely hand because he can play slower with AQ or QQ. He's not giving action here with KK, JJ, TT, so we don't beat anything at all.

Originally Posted by dev

If he's capable of bluff-raising the flop here, you can push over his raise or c-bet bigger and fold to a push.

As it stands he probably plays AK this way, and that's the only hand that doesn't have you crushed. It's his most likely hand because he can play slower with AQ or QQ. He's not giving action here with KK, JJ, TT, so we don't beat anything at all.

That's what I hated about it, and why I clicked for extra time and eventually let it run out. I felt like I was hoping for a split pot, which is not really what you want.

you're getting 3 to 1 about you can't fold, even versus a really horrible range we have better than 3 to 1.

nor would i make this play to fold, and I probably wouldn't make this play anyways. It's probably our worst option IMO.

this is a bad spot for cib, now you pretty much have to call but i expect to see QQ a ton

What line do you think is best here? Check-raise flop? If he comes back over the top, let it go? I've been splitting between check-raising and donking in these kinds of hands and I don't know what I think is better, but I do know that I hated how this hand went down, and I would have felt uncomfortable with any action after his flop raise.

b3b shove is much better than click it back, i dont have much of a preference between c/r, lead, or c/c though.

I think c/c all streets is much better than cib here. Im trying to work out if betting the river when the turn checks through is better than checking to him though. I dont think he really ever calls with worse but I cant see him bluffing very often either.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

b3b shove is much better than click it back, i dont have much of a preference between c/r, lead, or c/c though.

If you flop an ace or king, are you always felting this then? I felt like his 3-bet range was probably: AA, AK, KK, QQ, JJ, maybe TT, maybe AQ. I don't mind playing my AK against that range but I'm not sure I want to auto-stack off if he seems really happy with his hand. The queen was what really troubled me - if it was a naked ace and two rags, I'm not folding.

(This post should be subtitled, "Damn, I wish I'd had the ace of hearts to go with that king.")

Im not sure you should be calling the 3bet unless his 3bet range includes some stuff with an A or K in. If he doesnt 3bet AQ then hes never going broke with a worse hand and you are missing most flops OOP in a massive reverse implied odds spot. If he 3bets lots of pairs then you can 4bet, If he 3bets tight then you can fold. But I think calling is pretty bad if he doesnt 3bet at least AQ. Dunno what others think though.

There is only very rare situations where for 100bb im not stacking off with AK on an ace high flop, and its not this situation.

I definetely understand where you're coming from, I'm not fist pump calling here, but I'm calling.

wanting to felt this aggressively for 100bb is super bad vs most players, theres a massive difference between AQx flops and Axx flops for AK in 3bet pots.

Whats with all the CiB... this has gotten out of control imo

I didn't realize this was against a "solid Tagg". That makes me want to fold, although I don't think that I do in the moment.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

wanting to felt this aggressively for 100bb is super bad vs most players, theres a massive difference between AQx flops and Axx flops for AK in 3bet pots.

Thanks, that was exactly what I was thinking at the time. That queen is a trouble card when the other guy seems eager to get all the chips in. I don't like my line here but I think (barring pot odds objections) that my fold was probably sound. Or at least, I was probably behind his range, and maybe WAY behind to his specific holdings. I may have still been getting good odds to call, but you know the usual story - I was up big for my session and felt strongly like I might be throwing most of that away with a call. (Bad reason to make a decision, I realize. I apologize unreservedly.)

On review I wish I had gone with my first instinct, which was to let him bet it and then check-raise, and fold to a push. The donk bet got me into trouble, which resulted in the click-back because I felt lost in the hand and wanted to find out if he was really happy with his hand or was just testing me. I'm not enthused that I did it, not at all.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

b3b shove is much better than click it back, i dont have much of a preference between c/r, lead, or c/c though.

just read these posts.

/thread

Originally Posted by dalecooper

On review I wish I had gone with my first instinct, which was to let him bet it and then check-raise, and fold to a push.

This is also bad. There aren't very many situations where bluffing with TPTK is a good idea and this certainly isn't one of them.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Originally Posted by dalecooper

On review I wish I had gone with my first instinct, which was to let him bet it and then check-raise, and fold to a push.

This is also bad. There aren't very many situations where bluffing with TPTK is a good idea and this certainly isn't one of them.

Check-raise = bluff? I don't follow that. I would think it would squeeze extra value out of KK/JJ (unless he's a check-behind guy) and might give me control of the hand if he also has AK, with the two possibilities of stealing his half of the pot (which I guess is a bluff) or at least controlling the betting so I don't have any difficult decisions later in the hand.

But if the CR is no good, I'm back to square one. Donk bet and fold to a serious raise? Check and flat his c-bet, re-evaluate on the turn? Make an early decision if my ace is good and either check/fold or felt it? Make me a recommendation.

nothing wrong with cib here, you have to get the money in when you flop an ace with AK in a 3 bet pot

I like C/C

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Check-raise = bluff? I don't follow that.

If you have no intention of felting your hand then your check-raise is a bluff. I guess it's conceivable that he could call the check-raise with a worse hand and then it could get checked down but I doubt that's too likely.

I'm sure I'd get all-in somehow, if you'd rather turn your hand into a bluff-catcher then raising doesn't seem to make much sense.