Common response to questions about spots in 3bet pots

I decided to write this entry because I feel like I'm responding with the same answers to the same questions over and over and over about playing in 3bet pots. I think this forum could definitely benefit from this article and it will make it much easier the next time the question comes up to be referred directly back here.....

So what's the issue?
General postflop situations in 3bet pots. The answer is never the same to any individual question, obviously, but with a little bit of the right type of thought process, anybody can figure out the answer on their own.

So I'm going to use this example of a question a student sent me to illustrate the point.

Reads on villain: 20/13 reg, attempt 2 steal 26, fold to 3b 51

1/2NL Effective stacks 100bb

It folds to villain on the btn who opens to 8, hero holds As7s and 3bets from sb to 25

Flop: 9d7h2c

Hero questions: Is this a bad 3bet and should I c-bet this flop?...

The most important question to answer in order for hero to figure out what the correct play to make is here is to ask himself, WHY DID YOU 3BET? So I asked him... his response was....

"I 3bet because my hand is decent against his opening range and this guy doesn't continue too often without a draw, top pair, or better, though he does float sometimes with overs. However, since he only folds to 3bets half the time, I think if I cbet there is some potential for him to float me with missed overs, but he's probably also going to flat everything that has me crushed and I'm going to be confused on the turn."

So did you catch the error in hero's thought process here as to why it would be a good idea to 3bet A7s?

Maybe it wasn't so much an error as much as it was a case of hero not thinking through the types of situations he's going to get into postflop and being prepared for the ways to handle them.

My comment to him was "well, it seems to me a hand like A7s is going to make mostly either middle pair, or top pair no kicker type hands on the flop, and if you aren't sure whether your opponent is proned to float you with overs or flat you with monsters and you are going to be very unsure of how to react on the turn, the mistake was clearly 3betting this particular hand."

No one can tell you what the right play is in this spot w/ A7s here, there's just not enough information.

3bets can be one of the strongest weapons in your arsenal if understood and used correctly, so here's a couple more things this article sparked in my mind about 3betting in general:

You've always got to know WHY you are 3betting. Are you 3betting J4s because you expect your opponent is going to fold very often before the flop? That's a fine play if his fold to 3bet is high and it's a spot villain is likely to be stealing. It's super important though that you make it clear to yourself that if he ends up calling, that you should in no way feel comfortable playing tpnk for stacks, you should likely be very cautious and pot control it (Nor should you be multi barreling as a bluff since if you thought the guy was going to fold, his range is clearly stronger than a standard 3bet calling range).

If you are expecting your opponent to call your 3bet, think about what types of hands you are trying to make, usually if you expect your opponent to call your 3bet, you should be 3betting hands like KJ/KQ/AJ/AT/QJ so that when you make a good top pair hand you can feel comfortable betting and getting it in. The thing is, as long as you know WHY you made the 3bet preflop, then you won't have to ask these questions anymore about what you should do *this* time, since you will already have that plotted out in your head before the situation even comes up.

This goes for getting 3bet:

If you have been getting 3bet a bunch by a player in the blinds when you open OTB, why are you opening A5o this next BTN even though the BB 3bet you the last 4 out of 5 times you opened from this position? I see a lot of players not thinking enough to realize that they are about to get 3bet, then decide, oh well I have to fight back now, without actually being prepared, so now you are making your plan up as you go and have to 4bet A5o without any actual idea how villain is going to respond. --Your standard in these types of spots should be to NARROW your opening range and WIDEN your value 4betting range.

The same goes for 3betting, if you keep getting 4bet by a player, stop 3betting him w/ QT/QJ/Q9/JT/J9 type hands, you are wasting them, you have to prepare and widen your 3bet value range so that you can shove over him w/ 88/99/TT/AJ/KQ next time he does 4bet.

In conclusion. Most of the problems I end up seeing in these posts are that the hero hasn't thought about his plan for why he's doing what he's doing, then he ends up trying to make it up on the spot, gets himself confused, makes some silly mistake, then asking us in the forum what he should have done better in the situation, when in reality, all you really need to do is anticipate the situation that will likely reoccur and adjust accordingly--ways to do that are mentioned in previous paragraphs. Do this and I promise you won't be in those types of confusing difficult situations anymore.

Awesome post, marshall - thx

e-peen needs some stroking after you got ignored in the bet/check/bet thread? jk.. nice post I agree with what you say

nice post... too bad you didn't write this couple of months ago I woulda saved some money.

i often 3bet AXs hands OOP against people whose fold to 3bet percentage is 75%+ (pretty rare). if I get called I pretty confidently check flop that didn't hit me either the draw or TP because a big chunck of his calling range is big pairs. i usually also cbet any K in this situation. do you think this is good?

I'm still somewhat unexperienced with light 3betting but I think I'm getting there.

Nicee.

Thanks for making a post like this. Dealing with 3 bets is what I suspect to be one of my biggest leaks at this game.

I think a lot of peoples problems when it comes to situations is that they know "what" to do, but not "why". It's like they have memorised a textbook, and can regurgitate it, but can't answer any questions about what relates to the textbook, if that makes sense?

Once you understand how ranges etc work, then you can answer most of your own questions. There's a huge huge difference between knowing and understanding, you need to be able to understand in order to change your strategy in order to exploit someone you haven't had much history of exploiting or haven't read how to exploit....and that goes far beyond just the simple loose/tight adaptions.

Not really good at explaining things, but I like this bit.

"If you have been getting 3bet a bunch by a player in the blinds when you open OTB, why are you opening A5o this next BTN even though the BB 3bet you the last 4 out of 5 times you opened from this position? I see a lot of players not thinking enough to realize that they are about to get 3bet, then decide, oh well I have to fight back now, without actually being prepared, so now you are making your plan up as you go and have to 4bet A5o without any actual idea how villain is going to respond. --Your standard in these types of spots should be to NARROW your opening range and WIDEN your value 4betting range.

The same goes for 3betting, if you keep getting 4bet by a player, stop 3betting him w/ QT/QJ/Q9/JT/J9 type hands, you are wasting them, you have to prepare and widen your 3bet value range so that you can shove over him w/ 88/99/TT/AJ/KQ next time he does 4bet. "

Staying one step ahead of villains is so crucial. Anticipating what he expects you to do to adapt to what he is doing is huge against the standard tags....who are 'standard' for a reason.

Originally Posted by DirtyGoblin

nice post... too bad you didn't write this couple of months ago I woulda saved some money.

i often 3bet AXs hands OOP against people whose fold to 3bet percentage is 75%+ (pretty rare). if I get called I pretty confidently check flop that didn't hit me either the draw or TP because a big chunck of his calling range is big pairs. i usually also cbet any K in this situation. do you think this is good?

I'm still somewhat unexperienced with light 3betting but I think I'm getting there.

I think this is a great strategy in situations where the PROFITABILITY of your 3bet comes from your preflop fold equity.

If you are understanding where the profitability of your play is coming from, then it clearly makes little to no sense to continue firing and double barreling post flop you already made your money with your 3bet. Just because he happened to call you this time doesn't mean you need to compound the error by spewing more money when it was already your read preflop that your opponent is folding all but his strongest hands to 3bets.

Reiterated: If he's folding too much to 3bets, and he calls this one, his range is STRONG. Don't put more money into the pot, just c/f most boards.

C-betting K and A high flops is fine.

Great post for someone like me, and I'm sure many others.

TYTY

deleted

Is there a button I can use to delete iopq's responses?

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wat

Originally Posted by Galapogos

wat

Originally Posted by iopq

my point is your hand strength is not the most important consideration when 5b shoving, but timing is more important

Originally Posted by Galapogos

wat

Count to nine, then 5b, imo - works every time.

wat, wat

That was a really disappointing post & backpedal in what was on track to be a very high quality thread. Thank you Marshall & Toadstool for you contributions.

Seriously, IOPQ just has no idea what he's talking about, he thinks he owned me or whatever because we played like 150 hands of hu at 100nl when I was super drunk and he came up like half a buy in.

He has a ridiculous ego, a very poor understanding of the game in general and no desire to learn from other, much more successful players attempts to educate him.

It was my intention not to respond to his posts to steer clear of derailing the thread and attempt to not entice him to comment any further as they aren't welcomed or appreciated.

Any other questions or comments, I'm happy to respond.

Originally Posted by Marshall28

Any other questions or comments, I'm happy to respond.

a situation I encounter more often as I start to 3-bet far more is something like:

I 3-bet the button vs a cutoff steal with something like TJs vs a 75% fold-to-3-bet/36% steal type of player, villain calls. His range is likely broadways and pairs if he's realised that I'm 3-betting him too much, and likely 99-QQ, AK,KQ or something if he hasn't realised.

The flop comes AT6 and villain checks, and has a very high (70-ish%) fold to c-bet and has check-raised never. So if this had been an iso-of-a-limper it would be a super standard cbet, it still feels like it should be - and shut down on turn if faced with any resistance. But?

Originally Posted by Marshall28

Seriously, IOPQ just has no idea what he's talking about, he thinks he owned me or whatever because we played like 150 hands of hu at 100nl when I was super drunk and he came up like half a buy in.

He has a ridiculous ego, a very poor understanding of the game in general and no desire to learn from other, much more successful players attempts to educate him.

It was my intention not to respond to his posts to steer clear of derailing the thread and attempt to not entice him to comment any further as they aren't welcomed or appreciated.

Any other questions or comments, I'm happy to respond.

fine, I deleted my posts

I wanted to make this post in my operation, but since no one reads it I'll make it here.

You have covered the two types of opponents that we want to 3b against. The people that call 3bs too much and the people that call 3bs not enough. You forgot to mention that if we run into tough regs that will call 3bs just enough to make your pre-flop attempt unprofitable but not enough to have a weak range post-flop it doesn't mean we should stop 3bing them as a bluff. The combination of the fold equity on your 3b preflop and post-flop should cover the cost of the 3b.

Kinds assuming people play well postflop and hero pwns postflop.

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

Kinds assuming people play well postflop and hero pwns postflop.

Well you'll find that if villain calls our 3b say 35% of the time and sticks in a 4b say 10% of the time
we're still getting 55% folds

but maybe we need 70% to be automatically profitable
but the extra 25% can be EASILY achieved post-flop (plus we get our bet back, so we really only need villain to fold a small % of the time)

very good post, obv

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by Marshall28

Any other questions or comments, I'm happy to respond.

a situation I encounter more often as I start to 3-bet far more is something like:

I 3-bet the button vs a cutoff steal with something like TJs vs a 75% fold-to-3-bet/36% steal type of player, villain calls. His range is likely broadways and pairs if he's realised that I'm 3-betting him too much, and likely 99-QQ, AK,KQ or something if he hasn't realised.

The flop comes AT6 and villain checks, and has a very high (70-ish%) fold to c-bet and has check-raised never. So if this had been an iso-of-a-limper it would be a super standard cbet, it still feels like it should be - and shut down on turn if faced with any resistance. But?

LOL all the numbers you gave me aside, I'm just going to copy paste a hand history from one hand I played the other day on a board similar to what you are talking about....

Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: omgIhaz72o ( $470.75 USD )
Seat 3: Marshall28 ( $217.45 USD )
Seat 4: Greg890 ( $351.40 USD )
Seat 5: igoran1 ( $118.50 USD )
Seat 6: JonnyC5207 ( $343.70 USD )
Marshall28 posts small blind [$1.00 USD].
Greg890 posts big blind [$2.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Marshall28 [ Th 9d ]
igoran1 folds
JonnyC5207 folds
omgIhaz72o raises [$6.00 USD]
Marshall28 raises [$19.00 USD]
Greg890 folds
omgIhaz72o calls [$14.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, 3s, As ]
Marshall28 bets [$22.00 USD]
omgIhaz72o calls [$22.00 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7c ]
Marshall28 bets [$54.00 USD]
omgIhaz72o folds
Marshall28 wins $84.00 USD from main pot
Marshall28 wins $54.00 USD from main pot


I know I'm oop here and you're talking about in position, but I swear it's basically like printing money if they call your 3bet (this works even better when you're in position), then the pot on the flop is like 36, bet 16-18, they will peel like 80% of the time because it's an ace high flop, then turn comes and pot is now about 68, and you bet like 35 and they fold basically their entire range. There is nothing they can do. If they had AK they would have 4bet you (usually), AQ is one hand they can call, but at this point you set up a river shove perfectly and they have to realize that even if they do call this turn bet you are almost for sure going to shove the river so they decide not to call at all.

DISCLAIMER: If you are 3betting them out of control this clearly won't work because they will be suspicious, so don't just go and do it every single chance you get cuz marshall said so. But it works extremely well and is very profitable. A high boards are the best to double barrel.

Also, the more you do it and the better you get at it, eventually you will start to learn their timing on calling flop and sometimes turn, and you'll pick up on the correct times you're able to shove river and get folds.

One other thing to think about when sizing your bets on these boards also has to do w/ your equity in the pot. If you pick up some kind of draw on the turn like an oesd or fd, you probably want to size your turn bet a bit smaller (it will decrease your fold equity), but the times you do get there and you shove, it increases the the amount you make when you get paid off.

Originally Posted by iopq

I wanted to make this post in my operation, but since no one reads it I'll make it here.

You have covered the two types of opponents that we want to 3b against. The people that call 3bs too much and the people that call 3bs not enough. You forgot to mention that if we run into tough regs that will call 3bs just enough to make your pre-flop attempt unprofitable but not enough to have a weak range post-flop it doesn't mean we should stop 3bing them as a bluff. The combination of the fold equity on your 3b preflop and post-flop should cover the cost of the 3b.

I did cover these. They are covered in the part about people who don't call 3bets and 4bet you too much. I stated that against those types of players you need to narrow your opening range and widen your 4bet value range.

Also, if they are calling 3bets just enough, it means they are mostly going to have hands like 88-JJ, KQs/KJs/AJs/AQs, so their range for calling is going to be pretty narrow, you gotta play poker with those dudes though, they make lots of mistakes too.

Originally Posted by Marshall28

I did cover these. They are covered in the part about people who don't call 3bets and 4bet you too much. I stated that against those types of players you need to narrow your opening range and widen your 4bet value range.

But you're the one 3bing

Originally Posted by Marshall28

I know I'm oop here and you're talking about in position, but I swear it's basically like printing money if they call your 3bet (this works even better when you're in position), then the pot on the flop is like 36, bet 16-18, they will peel like 80% of the time because it's an ace high flop, then turn comes and pot is now about 68, and you bet like 35 and they fold basically their entire range. There is nothing they can do. If they had AK they would have 4bet you (usually), AQ is one hand they can call, but at this point you set up a river shove perfectly and they have to realize that even if they do call this turn bet you are almost for sure going to shove the river so they decide not to call at all.


One other thing to think about when sizing your bets on these boards also has to do w/ your equity in the pot. If you pick up some kind of draw on the turn like an oesd or fd, you probably want to size your turn bet a bit smaller (it will decrease your fold equity), but the times you do get there and you shove, it increases the the amount you make when you get paid off.

gold, thank you

Very awesome post Marshall. Props dude, love this part:

If you have been getting 3bet a bunch by a player in the blinds when you open OTB, why are you opening A5o this next BTN even though the BB 3bet you the last 4 out of 5 times you opened from this position? I see a lot of players not thinking enough to realize that they are about to get 3bet, then decide, oh well I have to fight back now, without actually being prepared, so now you are making your plan up as you go and have to 4bet A5o without any actual idea how villain is going to respond. --Your standard in these types of spots should be to NARROW your opening range and WIDEN your value 4betting range.

The same goes for 3betting, if you keep getting 4bet by a player, stop 3betting him w/ QT/QJ/Q9/JT/J9 type hands, you are wasting them, you have to prepare and widen your 3bet value range so that you can shove over him w/ 88/99/TT/AJ/KQ next time he does 4bet.

Thanks for the post

Marshall, did you wright your last posts itt with certain stakes in mind?

I really can't see barreling Axx boards being profitable at my stakes...but I'm too much of a nit to really have done it without good draws. That's 50NL btw.

I really like your betsizing though. In my experience when you know you're going to bluff barrel a lot, betting small on the first barrel to keep villains range wide for the secon one is very profitable.

Originally Posted by minSim

Marshall, did you wright your last posts itt with certain stakes in mind?

I really can't see barreling Axx boards being profitable at my stakes...but I'm too much of a nit to really have done it without good draws. That's 50NL btw.

I really like your betsizing though. In my experience when you know you're going to bluff barrel a lot, betting small on the first barrel to keep villains range wide for the secon one is very profitable.

yes it works at 50nl. stop being such a nit and you'll move up at some point.

I this thread

I'm a microstakes donk and ipoq still makes me puke.

nh marshall!

Originally Posted by sweetlemon69

I'm a microstakes donk and ipoq still makes me puke.

nh marshall!

ipoq? is that a new apple product?

nice thread, shame about the hate.

Nice post/thread. tyvm.

Seeing the link today (thx bjsaust) was good timing as a big leak of mine that recently came to light is that I don't have thought out plans/reasons for many things I do. That A7 example hand could have been mine.

to exploit regs as best as possible in 3bet pots:

ive encountered a few regs who seem to like 3betting MORE from SB/BB than BTN/CO, i figure this has to be exploitable when we have position on them.

to do this, what types of hands do we want to CALL their 3bets with? suited broadways? medium pairs? ie stuff that we dont want to 4bet/get it in but stuff we don't really want to fold?

then how do we play these post flop? I find hands like 88/99/TT etc to be very hard to play post flop because most flops suck for them, and with the suited broadways if you don't hit 2pr/combo draw they don't seem that easy either...

Originally Posted by bspahn

to exploit regs as best as possible in 3bet pots:

ive encountered a few regs who seem to like 3betting MORE from SB/BB than BTN/CO, i figure this has to be exploitable when we have position on them.

to do this, what types of hands do we want to CALL their 3bets with?

You are clearly smart enough to figure this one out..... you answered your own question w/ this:

Originally Posted by bspahn

stuff that we dont want to 4bet/get it in but stuff we don't really want to fold?

Originally Posted by bspahn

then how do we play these post flop? I find hands like 88/99/TT etc to be very hard to play post flop because most flops suck for them, and with the suited broadways if you don't hit 2pr/combo draw they don't seem that easy either...

You gotta use your head dude, just looking to other people for answers instead of working it out in your mind and struggling with it, you'll never improve. I'll help you out by giving you a prompt to start...

If we assume villain's raising frequencies to be too high in a certain spot, what other conclusions can we come to about the types of flops that will help him versus the types of flops that won't? And based on that information, how should we respond?

it seems we really need to have a good read on the opponent to be able to do anything. I don't really know what hands people are 3betting from SB/BB when they say have 7 or 8% 3bet from there, it really seems to vary. Am I just supposed to stack off a few times and call a bunch of pots down just to see what they had - this seems really frustrating to me thinking like this.

If i'm raising hands like TJs/QTs/KJs/KQs/AT/AJ/99/TT etc from LP and these guys 3bet then these are the hands I'd like to call with, but when I think about these hands and various flops they seem very difficult to play for me. When do I continue with TJ on a Txx flop when there's action, how do I continue with 99 when flop comes Jxx or Qxx, when I call with KJs and flop comes AJx how do I continue? I just really don't know. These hands are only easy to play when you hit big hands, combo draws, trips, 2 pair etc - but that seems to happen like never and we simply dont ever have odds to call 3bets just to hit those types of flops right?

so when I think about it I just have to fold, which means if I'm going to raise these and then fold I should just not play them in the first place, and then I become a 12/10 player and I might as well not even play poker in the first place. This is what seems so frustrating to me about poker - every situation I try and actually think about just leads me to think I just end up making a ton of mistakes and losing a lot of money.

bspahn, if villain is raising too wide, you have more FE and can bluff catch more.

So yeah you're almost always gonna continue 1 or 2 streets when you hit 1 pair with those hands on the flop.
You should also use FE more, i.e. by raising less good draws.

Yeah, minsim pretty much hits hit. Since he has a weaker range, we can play our draws more aggressively due to increased FE.

While we are talking about 3bet pots, I think there is one situation that hasn't been discussed in depth. That is...when you bet in MP/LP and get raised from LP.

I have a really difficult time with my calling range here... because it seems like I always just end up check folding the flop. A few of the tight regulars have been raising my LP bets more frequently...especially the multitabling regs.

My guess is that I should 4 bet them more since they have a wider than normal 3bet range, and calling OOP just sucks. But what type of hands should we be flatting with...if any?

EDITED to fix my HH posting fail.

Originally Posted by Marshall28

I know I'm oop here and you're talking about in position, but I swear it's basically like printing money if they call your 3bet (this works even better when you're in position), then the pot on the flop is like 36, bet 16-18, they will peel like 80% of the time because it's an ace high flop, then turn comes and pot is now about 68, and you bet like 35 and they fold basically their entire range. There is nothing they can do. If they had AK they would have 4bet you (usually), AQ is one hand they can call, but at this point you set up a river shove perfectly and they have to realize that even if they do call this turn bet you are almost for sure going to shove the river so they decide not to call at all.

lol, funny you say that 'cause:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($65.65)
Button ($51.15)
Hero (SB) ($156.35)
BB ($50)
UTG ($55.55)

Preflop: Hero is SB with ,
1 fold, MP bets $1.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $5.50, 1 fold, MP calls $4

Flop: ($11.50) , , (2 players)
Hero bets $6, MP calls $6

Turn: ($23.50) (2 players)
Hero bets $12, MP raises to $24, Hero calls $12

River: ($71.50) (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks

Total pot: $71.50 | Rake: $2

Results:
Hero had 7, 8 (high card, Ace).
MP had 10, J (one pair, tens).
Outcome: MP won $77.50


obv stack sizes are slightly different, but this was a hand i was already laughing about from today, so when i read this i was like, "yeah that villain was a poopyhead wasn't he?"