Dangerous two-pair hand

First hand at the table
anyone take a different line and why?

PokerStars Game #4458894472: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/03/29 - 22:20:52 (ET)
Table 'Pan II' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: beeds boys ($75.20 in chips)
Seat 2: Aces2Magic ($31 in chips)
Seat 3: LonMcEachern ($75 in chips)
Seat 4: Danflys ($55 in chips)
Seat 5: LANOUE ($81.45 in chips)
Seat 6: khillis ($9.50 in chips)
Aces2Magic: posts small blind $0.50
LonMcEachern: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to LonMcEachern [Ks 9h]
Danflys: calls $1
LANOUE: raises $1 to $2
khillis: calls $2
beeds boys: folds
Aces2Magic: folds
LonMcEachern: calls $1
Danflys: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [9c Kh Ac]
LonMcEachern: bets $4
Danflys: calls $4
LANOUE: raises $4 to $8
khillis: folds
LonMcEachern: calls $4
Danflys: calls $4
*** TURN *** [9c Kh Ac] [8s]
LonMcEachern: checks
Danflys: checks
LANOUE: bets $10
LonMcEachern: raises $13 to $23
Danflys: calls $23
LANOUE: calls $13
*** RIVER *** [9c Kh Ac 8s] [3d]
LonMcEachern: bets $42 and is all-in
Danflys: calls $22 and is all-in
LANOUE: calls $42

I'd bet more on this flop, close to pot, there are two cubs after all, if you then get raised it'll tell you more about where you stand. A minraise from $4 to $8 doesn't tell you much at all. Also when you decided to checkraise river, make the checkraise bigger. It would be good to take the pot just there instead of having someone with Ax hit their x..

I check raised the turn not the river. I led with a push on the river which is the play im most unsure of.

I think you should be cautious with bottom two pair on a board like this where your opponents easily could have aces up or better. I'm pretty sure that one of these guys (if not both) has you beat at this point.

Oh, and fold preflop with a hand like that OOP. It's a dominated hand a lot of the time.

Fold pre-flop

Originally Posted by zenbitz

Fold pre-flop

He's getting 6.5:1 on the preflop call. I call that with K9 to a minraise all day.

4 players in the hand and you have a 2 tone flop with an overcard. I don't like leading for less than one half of the pot here or the min raise call on the flop. I think you have to bet 3/4 to pot and don't be regretful about taking it down right there. You certainly don't want to see 3 people go to the turn. There is 32 in the pot on the turn and you essentially minraise a 1/3 pot bet and still have 3 people in on the river, I think you are in bad shape, but you needed to establish that earlier.

MP and CO are getting 4.5:1 and 3.5:1 to call on the river bet I think your fold equity is pretty small, I like a check/fold better with a check/call 2nd given the flop and turn line.

Originally Posted by Bear Bones

Originally Posted by zenbitz

Fold pre-flop

He's getting 6.5:1 on the preflop call. I call that with K9 to a minraise all day.

a call leads here to bigger mistakes on later streets

Originally Posted by gabe

a call leads here to bigger mistakes on later streets

K9o, meh.
K9s sure.
KTo sure.

That being said, if we only continued with 2 pair, trips or straight, would we show a profit on our 1 blind investment?

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by gabe

a call leads here to bigger mistakes on later streets

K9o, meh.
K9s sure.
KTo sure.

That being said, if we only continued with 2 pair, trips or straight, would we show a profit on our 1 blind investment?

its not just the hands, its the position. playing out of position with hands where you will be trying to figure out whether you are WA/WB just makes things worse.

So essentially the question is, do you call preflop because you are getting excellent odds or do you fold with the intention of eliminating mistakes postflop?

That being said, if we only continued with 2 pair, trips or straight, would we show a profit on our 1 blind investment?

I would tend to think yes...?

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by Bear Bones

Originally Posted by zenbitz

Fold pre-flop

He's getting 6.5:1 on the preflop call. I call that with K9 to a minraise all day.

a call leads here to bigger mistakes on later streets

6.5:1 is great odds... heads up or even three-handed, but not against 3. You are trivially dominated by KT/KJ/KQ, behind all sorts of AX, and need a QJT board to make a straight.

You need to hit 2 pair or better on the flop to continue.... hence 6.5:1 kinda sucks.

zenbitz wrote:
Fold pre-flop


He's getting 6.5:1 on the preflop call. I call that with K9 to a minraise all day.

4 players in the hand and you have a 2 tone flop with an overcard. I don't like leading for less than one half of the pot here or the min raise call on the flop. I think you have to bet 3/4 to pot and don't be regretful about taking it down right there. You certainly don't want to see 3 people go to the turn. There is 32 in the pot on the turn and you essentially minraise a 1/3 pot bet and still have 3 people in on the river, I think you are in bad shape, but you needed to establish that earlier.

MP and CO are getting 4.5:1 and 3.5:1 to call on the river bet I think your fold equity is pretty small, I like a check/fold better with a check/call 2nd given the flop and turn line.

The math is right. Not sure if the preflop is. Infact, ill argue it aint.
Fnords ok here. Kxs sure, KT maybe.

Beyond that. Meh. He called u through two streets despite strength. Im looking for a cheap enough showdown once that occurs unless hes a donkey.
If i saw your preflop call (although id never make the preflop minraise) id be wanting to play with you a lot. Doesnt matter to me what preflop odds u get on the pot, lets play something that will have relavance in getting someone stacked imo. Otherwise we end up in messy sitautions like this.
Wouldnt be surprised if your beat a fair bit here.
What nut hands does K9o make is the question i would ask.

I like to play a wide range of hands so i find myself in situations like this somewhat regularly. I know (or like to think i can) get away from most flops that only marginally fit me and the hard part often is figuring out when to extract value as opposed to when to look for a cheap showdown when I do make a hand. Perhaps this is a leak...

They had AQ and AJ