Extracting value versus bluffy fish

opp is a 38/23/4 bluffy fish type player. The turn is what I'm really interested in and your plan after that.

PokerStars Game #8339790031: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2007/02/08 - 14:13:32 (ET)
Table 'Acrab V' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: pabi ($277.50 in chips)
Seat 2: redgrape ($206.25 in chips)
Seat 4: RazTaFaRib0b ($194.80 in chips)
Seat 5: jakally ($196.95 in chips)
redgrape: posts small blind $1
RazTaFaRib0b: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [8d 8h]
jakally: folds
pabi: raises $4 to $6
redgrape: calls $5
RazTaFaRib0b: folds
*** FLOP *** [Jc 8s 6h]
redgrape: checks
pabi: bets $6
redgrape: raises $14 to $20
pabi: calls $14
*** TURN *** [Jc 8s 6h] [Ks]
redgrape: checks

Interesting line.

What's his behavior with second barrels? How big does he like to be relative to the pot? How fast does he escalate the violence? How much does he need to call down?

That's the stuff I think about in these spots.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Interesting line.

What's his behavior with second barrels? How big does he like to be relative to the pot? How fast does he escalate the violence? How much does he need to call down?

That's the stuff I think about in these spots.

On second barrels i see him bet a lot when checked to, but he has also called a lot on scary boards. His bluffs tend to be weak types. and He'll definetely make a big one. His SD% is like 25% but on third barrels hes folded a lot.

Tempted to drop the hammer on the turn.

Do you ever c/r flop and give up? Would he notice?

I must be missing somthing subtle here, but I don't get this line. Are you hoping to c/r the turn,too? Or hoping he has a K?

It just seems like you are letting him keep the pot small too easy when he has a little something.

Originally Posted by zenbitz

Do you ever c/r flop and give up? Would he notice?

I must be missing somthing subtle here, but I don't get this line. Are you hoping to c/r the turn,too? Or hoping he has a K?

It just seems like you are letting him keep the pot small too easy when he has a little something.

i think he thinks that this guy will bet if he has a little something.

Originally Posted by zenbitz

Do you ever c/r flop and give up? Would he notice?

I must be missing somthing subtle here, but I don't get this line. Are you hoping to c/r the turn,too? Or hoping he has a K?

It just seems like you are letting him keep the pot small too easy when he has a little something.

I think his line is repping AJ or something, and being 'scared' of the overcard King that hit, hoping that villain will bet the scare card, and he can re-pop him after his bluff attempt ( or not a bluff, if he has a king).

zenbitz: In my limited experience at 100NL 6-max, the flop c/r bluff is pretty common. So I think villain could easily put Iowa on air here, or TPGK that's worried his hand isn't good anymore.

The problem is that two c/r's almost has to be the goods, esp on a drawless board. I like a $35 turn lead personally.

Originally Posted by zook

The problem is that two c/r's almost has to be the goods, esp on a drawless board. I like a $35 turn lead personally.

Is he more likely to call down when we follow-through or fire again if checked to? I really don't mind folding out a lot of hands with the 2nd c/r if it gets him to put a lot of money into the pot before he does it.

I was actually thinking c/c, c/r river.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by zook

The problem is that two c/r's almost has to be the goods, esp on a drawless board. I like a $35 turn lead personally.

Is he more likely to call down when we follow-through or fire again if checked to? I really don't mind folding out a lot of hands with the 2nd c/r if it gets him to put a lot of money into the pot before he does it.

If the K hit him I think he's calling or raising the turn. If it didn't, I doubt he's betting the turn anyway.

edit: But if we check turn and he checks behind, we give him another chance to hit something on the river... but then we lose almost all chance of playing a big pot. I dunno, I still like a turn lead, esp from an aggro player like redgrape.

I think i shoulda led out the turn again.
What does anyone think of betting less than half pot so it looks weak?

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I was actually thinking c/c, c/r river.

I just think that you are getting checked behind on of these streets... so for this to be good he has to bet a big chunk. That also assumes he buys (or is capable of buying) your flop c/r as a bluff - which I agree is certainly possible for some games and some villains.

When I have a meh hand or am bluffing oop, I often end up with a bet-bet-check line, and an aggrodonk might raise turn or bet river with something bad.

stack-a-donk seems better too. Especially if you lower your turn c/r so that he might put in the final raise.

Your line might be optimal when villian has exactly nothing

i like the smallish bet on turn then river push idea