F@#$ YOU DOYLE: what you think of this squeez??

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($55.15)
SB ($216.80)
Hero ($102.70)
UTG ($102.60)
MP ($241.05)
CO ($100)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2, T.
UTG raises to $4, MP calls $4, CO calls $4, Button calls $4, 1 fold, Hero raises to $25, UTG folds, MP calls $21, CO folds, Button calls $21.

Flop: ($83.50) 9, 3, T (3 players)

Final Pot: $83.50


Squeeze gone WRONG

I Shove Flop... Important Info: utg runs 21/21 and seems at least rational so I dont expect him calling without AK+ QQ+, MP seems loose and generally bad, button is an unknown shorty

checkfold flop and this is a gross spot to squeeze

Do you guys just get bored at the table?

edited for embarassment

An UTG raise followed by 3 callers does not a good squeeze spot make.

Thanks Yoda

welcome, you are

LOLZ
why is everyone flaming this? this is a completely reasonable spot to squeeze.
1. Sauce, don't post results, end HH at squezze point plz.
2. It's hard for me not after the squezze to not c/f the flop even though you hit it.

Wow, I can't believe how out of line FTR has gotten at this post. Sauce123 is actually a very solid 100 and 200nl reg, and just because the guy made his first post on this forum doesn't mean he sucks.

I'd like to hear reasoning of why exactly you think anyone is going to call sauce's raise?

and what's with the FU doyle thing?

Just to make sure I'm not crazy, I talked to Lyric about the hand; here's our convo:
Redgrape20 (5:33:20 PM): how good/bad is this if UTG is raising a big range in EP and all cold callers are not super passive?
Redgrape20 (5:33:24 PM): PokerStarsNo-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Toolfrom FlopTurnRiver.com(Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($55.15)
SB ($216.80)
Hero ($102.70)
UTG ($102.60)
MP ($241.05)
CO ($100)

Preflop:Hero is BB with 2, T.
UTG raises to $4, MP calls $4, CO calls $4, Button calls $4, 1 fold, Hero raises to $25
Redgrape20 (5:34:22 PM): Lyric u there?
Redgrape20 (5:35:03 PM): I guess not
xxxxx(5:35:52 PM): T2o?
Redgrape20 (5:35:14 PM): T2s
xxxxx(5:35:56 PM): that's your hand?
xxxxx (5:36:00 PM): it's not that bad
Redgrape20 (5:35:19 PM): its my friends hand
Redgrape20 (5:35:29 PM): but not good?
xxxxxx (5:37:47 PM): i would choose a hand with a little more strength, but with all that dead money out there it is very enticing
xxxxxxx(5:38:00 PM): esp if they don't slowplay and you haven't been squeezing much
Redgrape20 (5:37:26 PM): k
Redgrape20 (5:37:48 PM): if you get two callers, none who were UTG or MP and the flop comes T93 rainbow do u just c/f?
xxxxxxx(5:39:12 PM): c bet half pot prolly
Redgrape20 (5:38:46 PM): and fold to a raise?
xxxxx(5:39:31 PM): but hell they are horrible if they called your Squeez
xxxxxx (5:39:32 PM): e
Redgrape20 (5:38:54 PM): lol
Redgrape20 (5:38:55 PM): k
Redgrape20 (5:39:14 PM): isn't half pot here $40 which is pretty much ur entire stack?
Redgrape20 (5:39:19 PM): are we calling a raise?
xxxxxx (5:40:27 PM): depends on those donkeys
xxxxxxx (5:40:33 PM): prolly not
Redgrape20 (5:40:06 PM): so there's just way too much FE?
Redgrape20 (5:40:08 PM): to not bet
Redgrape20 (5:41:39 PM): ?
xxxxxx: have like QT or a set
Redgrape20 (5:43:08 PM): lol k

AARGGGH.

The squeeze play is so incredibly overrated. Out of 100 spots where theres a raise and one or more calls and it folds to us, probably 2 or less of those spots is an profitable spot to reraise without a hand.

In OP's hand, he's a massive favorite to get called, and he doesn't have a playable hand when called.

FU Dolye= 10 2

Doyle won both WSOP with 10 2

That's the FU Doyle

Do we really need to make plays like this is my question?

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Do we really need to make plays like this is my question?

Thanks for the doyle clarification, lol can't believe i didn't get that.

I don't think the question in ring is whether we ever need to make a play, it's whether the play is +EV or not. And even if this is borderlin EV, I think we do it just for image and balancing reasons.

Here's how his HH needs to look.

Originally Posted by sauce123

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($100)
SB ($216.80)
Hero ($102.70)
UTG ($102.60)
MP ($241.05)
CO ($100)

Preflop: Hero is BB with a hand a little more playable than T2s

CO raises to $4, Button calls $4, SB calls $4, Hero raises to $20

Important Info: cutoff is clearly opening a very wide range here seems at least rational so I dont expect him calling without AK+ QQ+, BTN seems loose but is capable of folding hands

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Just to make sure I'm not crazy, I talked to Lyric about the hand; here's our convo:
Redgrape20 (5:33:20 PM): how good/bad is this if UTG is raising a big range in EP and all cold callers are not super passive?
Redgrape20 (5:33:24 PM): PokerStarsNo-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Toolfrom FlopTurnRiver.com(Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($55.15)
SB ($216.80)
Hero ($102.70)
UTG ($102.60)
MP ($241.05)
CO ($100)

Preflop:Hero is BB with 2, T.
UTG raises to $4, MP calls $4, CO calls $4, Button calls $4, 1 fold, Hero raises to $25
Redgrape20 (5:34:22 PM): Lyric u there?
Redgrape20 (5:35:03 PM): I guess not
xxxxx(5:35:52 PM): T2o?
Redgrape20 (5:35:14 PM): T2s
xxxxx(5:35:56 PM): that's your hand?
xxxxx (5:36:00 PM): it's not that bad
Redgrape20 (5:35:19 PM): its my friends hand
Redgrape20 (5:35:29 PM): but not good?
xxxxxx (5:37:47 PM): i would choose a hand with a little more strength, but with all that dead money out there it is very enticing
xxxxxxx(5:38:00 PM): esp if they don't slowplay and you haven't been squeezing much
Redgrape20 (5:37:26 PM): k
Redgrape20 (5:37:48 PM): if you get two callers, none who were UTG or MP and the flop comes T93 rainbow do u just c/f?
xxxxxxx(5:39:12 PM): c bet half pot prolly
Redgrape20 (5:38:46 PM): and fold to a raise?
xxxxx(5:39:31 PM): but hell they are horrible if they called your Squeez
xxxxxx (5:39:32 PM): e
Redgrape20 (5:38:54 PM): lol
Redgrape20 (5:38:55 PM): k
Redgrape20 (5:39:14 PM): isn't half pot here $40 which is pretty much ur entire stack?
Redgrape20 (5:39:19 PM): are we calling a raise?
xxxxxx (5:40:27 PM): depends on those donkeys
xxxxxxx (5:40:33 PM): prolly not
Redgrape20 (5:40:06 PM): so there's just way too much FE?
Redgrape20 (5:40:08 PM): to not bet
Redgrape20 (5:41:39 PM): ?
xxxxxx: have like QT or a set
Redgrape20 (5:43:08 PM): lol k

making sure everyone reads this, this is from my pro friend.

Renton, I'm not sure you have to be that sure of it, but of course that situation would be a lot more ideal.

I never squeeze more than 1 cold caller, because I always figure with three people already in the pot one of them is bound to call the raise. Having said that, I thought the whole point of a squeeze was to do it with a shitty hand that has slim chance of otherwise winning. Else isn't it best to just call? I guess my question is, why is T2s not a good squeezing hand?

hahahahha..... ok if this is getting flamed this bad I should post some where I'm REALLY out of line lol. Regardless my thought processes for the hand r as follows:

1. there is 17.50 in dead money in the pot I'm raising 25 to win that therefore it does not have to succeed often.

2. UTG runs 21/21, as someone who knows what that means i put his utg raising range as AT+ any pair, and some connectors if he feels like it

3. UTG seems to be a thinking player who is not going to call with an AQ type of hand here.

AND postflop:

1. The two callers r by FAR the worst players at the table.
2. I'm obviously pissed at getting two callers, but against these two donks, getting 2 to 1 from the pot I can't imagine folding top pair + I should have some FE here.

Keep the flames broiling plz

Not flaming just wanting to know how typical of a play is this?

I can understand why you picked this spot but you need to be more than 50% certain that this will take down the pot as you have very little chance in taking down the pot postflop if the 2 players are as bad as you say they are.

[quote="sauce123"]1. there is 17.50 in dead money in the pot I'm raising 25 to win that therefore it does not have to succeed often./quote]

How do u figure? Sounds to me like this needs to work way over half the time for $$$.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Not flaming just wanting to know how typical of a play is this?

I can understand why you picked this spot but you need to be more than 50% certain that this will take down the pot as you have very little chance in taking down the pot postflop if the 2 players are as bad as you say they are.

This isn't a typical play, it's just a laggy thing to do, but that doesn't mean it's not good.
If the players behind UTG have an over 50 vpip Im not sure I raise here.

Ok sry let me add to that a little. The bad player (MP) was running 33/12ish if i remember so hes not just some drunk guy whos calling with any two here to get lucky. Hes just bad. The btn caller was a shortstack so obviously no credit lol, also I have no idea wtf he has if he chose to coldcall on the button after all those raises, I'm gonna guess some suited connector hes waaaaaay overvaluing given his stack size or maybe AQ AJ. So basically I legitimately thought this play succeeds 60%ish of the time given the villains ranges/tendencies. The flop play was just me knowing I would be calling a push getting over 2 to 1 against these villains, and so therefore pushing myself to pick up whatever FE possible is a better play imo.

Am I the UTG here??? Anyway I think this is fine, with a read of course. Although T2s is real weak...

One last thing.

I'm running 17/14ish on the table so I have a tight image and I have never tried a squeeze before at this table.

Also one poster made a very legitimate point which was basically: sure this is a marginal spot, so why do you need to make this play?

Agreed, honestly. I made it because I wanted to and I thought it was a new play which was +ev in this situation. I posted it because its a play I make almost never and so feedback is welcome. Thanks. Sauce.

i don't think u are doing better than 2:1 against the hands that are pushing this flop if u check. Hence the c/f.

Renton,

Very true. However, I have no desire to give a free card here and I think given these villains there is a real chance I have the best hand and a legitimate chance they may fold the best hand (ok, small chance of that lol). Also I get called by any flush draw (AKs, AQs, AJs) any straight draw (QJ, 87) which I have stated I think may be a part of callers ranges.

Originally Posted by Renton

i don't think u are doing better than 2:1 against the hands that are pushing this flop if u check. Hence the c/f.

that's why i bet half pot, so we dont have to be.

Aight, obviously I've been corrected here, and I did go too far, and I'd like to apologise.

But still, doesn't the fact that UTG opened UTG make it pretty scary? Or am I overvaluing position in an aggressive shorthanded situation here?

I think I'm still gonna need to read some more points from IowaSkinsFan before I'm positive that this HH isn't an example of someone outplaying themselves and owning themselves in the process though.

To be perfectly honest, I think what mainly made me go "wtf this is crazy" is that it was T2. I have seen many a fish think T2 is the nuts cause it's a "lucky" hand many a time, and it instantly reminded me of that.

Hell, do this with 54 and I prolly wouldn't have said shit. :P

Read the chat I posted.
Also he stated UTG range was big, and the fact that he's raising an UTG player indicates a lot of strength.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Read the chat I posted.
Also he stated UTG range was big, and the fact that he's raising an UTG player indicates a lot of strength.

Is UTG 21/21 from UTG, or 21/21 at the table? Big huge massive difference.

I appreciate your pros thoughts but he is heavily leaning on "if they're not bad this is good", but what if they're bad!?!?

I think its a bit spewy, but I don't think the squeeze is quite as bad as people are saying if you have a nitty image. That said, these SPECIFIC table dynamics that I gather from a few posts make it pretty bad imo.

very easy flop shove imo, the pot is massive and we have an incredibly vulnerable top pair that's probably good more often then people think, we have a good 20% equity against a lot of the hands that we're behind, and we probably have a bit of FE against the player directly behind us.

wheeee

Originally Posted by Lukie

I think its a bit spewy, but I don't think the squeeze is quite as bad as people are saying if you have a nitty image. That said, these SPECIFIC table dynamics that I gather from a few posts make it pretty bad imo.

very easy flop shove imo, the pot is massive and we have an incredibly vulnerable top pair that's probably good more often then people think, we have a good 20% equity against a lot of the hands that we're behind, and we probably have a bit of FE against the player directly behind us.

im going with this. It isnt great but not awful
My only question is how many 30/1x donks are stacking off with tp/mk here like QTs ATs and all that shyte we know they call large reraises with.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by Renton

i don't think u are doing better than 2:1 against the hands that are pushing this flop if u check. Hence the c/f.

that's why i bet half pot, so we dont have to be.

Purposely making an ev mistake in betting just so you'll have odds to call a push is pretty dumb imo.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by Renton

i don't think u are doing better than 2:1 against the hands that are pushing this flop if u check. Hence the c/f.

that's why i bet half pot, so we dont have to be.

Purposely making an ev mistake in betting just so you'll have odds to call a push is pretty dumb imo.

Exactly what I thought when I read it. This would be compounding errors IMO.

my question would be why do this when this stars game is pretty easy to beat anyway without playing wildly?

i love this thread.

Yea great point with the "you dont have to do this--- this is ssnl attitude" you guys r obviously 100% right and I dont I just thought it was a slim +ev play I wanted to experiment with.

Results: MP called with AKdd btn folded, MP spiked a Kh on turn and won.

Results: +EV HOLLA!! (and yes thats completely results oriented I may think the play is slightly +ev but given all this discussion its def close and could be -ev)

Good discussion thanks, peace, sauce.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Do you guys just get bored at the table?

Originally Posted by jyms

Ahem....

agree with both of these guys, the OP is a noob with no discipline and he'll never accomplish anything in poker

awesome

wow this is my favorite bump ever. Sauce really burst onto ftr!

Classic bump, ty

Lol, I came in here to bump this because of the recent commune post about his MTT win. Crazy how he was a mere 100NL reg little over a year ago.

lol

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Do you guys just get bored at the table?

Originally Posted by jyms

Ahem....

agree with both of these guys, the OP is a noob with no discipline and he'll never accomplish anything in poker

obv.

seriously though its just amazing that he was playing 100nl a little over a year ago.

lol wow.

whatever happened to this fish anyways?

Wow sauce joined the same month as me. I wish I'd made as much progress.

haha ditto I've just noticed

MEGABUMP!

hey sauce, congrats on becoming a coach at leggopoker btw

lol didnt read this thread on first bump. Looking back I think the squeeze is fine we should just c/f the flop and win when he has KQ/AQ/AK, lose when he doesnt.