Fold - Am i right?

***** Pacific Hand History for Game 52688956 *****
$0.5/$1 Blinds No Limit Hold'em - *** 11 10 19:25:34 2007
Table Tickle Me Purple (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 10: Clar17y ( $240.77 )
Seat 3: yivina ( $75.39 )
Seat 6: hippias ( $255.43 )
Seat 8: Rolle72 ( $245.87 )
Seat 9: slotboy ( $101.5 )
Rolle72 posts small blind [$0.5].
slotboy posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Clar17y [ 6d 6h ]
Clar17y raises [$3].
yivina calls [$3].
hippias folds.
Rolle72 calls [$2.5].
slotboy calls [$2].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, Jc, Qc ]
Rolle72 checks.
slotboy checks.
Clar17y bets [$6].
yivina folds.
Rolle72 raises [$22].
slotboy folds.
Clar17y calls [$16].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kd ]
Rolle72 bets [$39].
Clar17y raises [$90].
Rolle72 calls [$51].
** Dealing River ** [ Jh ]
Rolle72 bets [$130.87].
Clar17y folds.

He's a tight agressive player, stats 28/19/5, haven't seen him show down any crap.
I thought at best he had 2pair on flop that rivered a full house, folding good?

Clar

One more. Guy literally just sat down hand before and i raised pref-flop and c-bet and he folded.

***** Pacific Hand History for Game 63269678 *****
$0.5/$1 Blinds No Limit Hold'em - *** 11 10 19:43:35 2007
Table Ambush (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: Clar17y ( $214.03 )
Seat 4: siro15 ( $99 )
Seat 5: marcusti ( $94.35 )
Seat 6: NeO8115 ( $96.23 )
Seat 7: Donlunfa ( $166.64 )
Seat 9: bouyaa ( $144.23 )
Clar17y posts small blind [$0.5].
siro15 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Clar17y [ Ah As ]
marcusti calls [$1].
NeO8115 folds.
Donlunfa folds.
bouyaa folds.
Clar17y raises [$3.5].
siro15 calls [$3].
marcusti calls [$3].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ks, Jh, Kc ]
Clar17y bets [$6].
siro15 raises [$12].
marcusti folds.
Clar17y calls [$6].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9c ]
Clar17y checks.
siro15 bets [$20].
Clar17y folds.
** Summary **
siro15 collected [$54.2].

=( Bad board day oO

Clar

1st hand) Why didn't you 3-bet this flop?

2nd hand) i think you have to call that turn bet

Originally Posted by Massimo

1st hand) Why didn't you 3-bet this flop?

2nd hand) i think you have to call that turn bet

I didn't 3-bet flop because, tbh, i thought i was trapping and hoping to get it all in on a non-club turn. Though you are right opp seemed to like his hand a lot, i just hate 3-betting and getting a fold.

Why do you call the $20 in hand 2? What do you do if he shoves river? Or even pots it? He min-raised flop isn't that huge strength at this limit?

Clar

well at this point you're not going to get much value out of hands that are going to fold to your 3-bet anyways, so just do it.

And yeah, on hand 2 a lot of times you're gonna see a K. But it still could be any J and he really hasn't done anything yet to tell me that isn't in his range. If he pots the river just fold. But maybe that's just poor planning...

Ok in hand 1 i think i actually saved myself money since apparently he had an overset (JJ he claims), however due to my not 3-betting on the flop, is the river a fold the way it's played?
I imagine anyone who liked their hand enough to get to the river, is going to like the river card even more and i'd lose to a higher FH. So as played is the river a fold?

Hand 2 i just don't like unknowns min-raising the flop and then almost potting the turn on a blank when there are 2 kings over. Maybe it's a bit weak to fold on the turn but if i don't hit one of my two outs it's not looking good imo.

On another note i have to stop calling all-ins on the river when there's 3 to a flush over and i have an overpair/set... >.<

Clar

He's a fucking retard if he had JJ there, I'm not sure if that's what he's claiming.. I think something like Tc9c is his most likely holding, even though it's difficult to work out what he has given his line.. I think the river is definitely a call, I can't seem him c/ring KJ on that flop (Though QJ is possible).

But yeah, 3bet flop and get it in.

Hand 2, I like b/f turn, c/f and c/c just don't give you any useful information whatsoever.

if pacific is as loose/bad as i remember, i think both hands were terrible.

hand one...i am not dropping a boat. period. i dont raise the turn, as he could have hit his str8, but he is giving ok-ish odds to take your 10 outer w/ implieds. he isnt folding to your boat if he has the straight.

btw, as i see it, clar open raised...he cant 3bet because they all called his raise.

hand two...he bets $20 into $35ish and you fold an overpair? thats pretty nitty where i come from. just call down and keep the pot small. i am not folding to K's paired on the board just because a new guy called my pfr and bet at me.

one more thing. if pacific is still as loose as i remember, or even close, your 3X raise isnt going to do dick to thin the field. look at what happened in these two hands. you had it 4-way and 3-way to both your raises. not good for AA. you need to go 4X + limpers, as i remember it...minimum, or you will get sucked out on like crazy.

just my .02

hand 1, he check-raises flop, leads turn, you raised turn. he FLATCALLS. Then he bets out on a J river? Unless he was king nit, he made an excellent play on you

if he truly had an enormous and unbeatable hand, he'd check and let you bet out that river, since you apparently were more in love with your hand


you had to tell him "O RLY? I FOLDED KK! I KNEW YOU HAD JJ, DAMN RIGGED SHIT"

Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

hand 1, he check-raises flop, leads turn, you raised turn. he FLATCALLS. Then he bets out on a J river? Unless he was king nit, he made an excellent play on you

if he truly had an enormous and unbeatable hand, he'd check and let you bet out that river, since you apparently were more in love with your hand


you had to tell him "O RLY? I FOLDED KK! I KNEW YOU HAD JJ, DAMN RIGGED SHIT"

So check raising flop, leading turn, calling a big raise then pushing on the river isn't a sign of strength? Because i'm assuming your post was sarcastic and that i should be like "Omgz i came all over the keyboard then i clicked call" ?
I just don't see what he likes enough to raise flop, bet/call turn then push river if it isn't a boat. A straight would raise turn, and two pair i think plays exactly the way he did but i get the point... never fold a boat ¬.¬

On hand 2, i know it was nitty but min-raises always set off alarm bells in my head. Keeping the pot small when the other guy is trying to build it is just hard imo. He bets $20 on the turn, into a like $23 pot. That'd make it $63 on the river and i'd probably be facing an all-in or something big like $40 to call.
You guys call down hand 2 and take note in future? Even if it's all his stack?

Thanks for all the input though, i feel i'm learning a lot from this site
Clar

P.s. - yeah pacific is still a fish fest, but villain in hand 1 is a good player who i've seen a bit of and he's making money...

Originally Posted by Ash256

He's a fucking retard if he had JJ there, I'm not sure if that's what he's claiming.. I think something like Tc9c is his most likely holding, even though it's difficult to work out what he has given his line.. I think the river is definitely a call, I can't seem him c/ring KJ on that flop (Though QJ is possible).

But yeah, 3bet flop and get it in.

Hand 2, I like b/f turn, c/f and c/c just don't give you any useful information whatsoever.

I didn't think to bet/fold in hand 2, for some reason i instantly put him on a king and was absolutely sure he had it >.<
But i think you're right i like bet/fold a lot more too.

What happens if he just calls the turn? Do i make a blocking bet on the river or do i just check/call?

Clar

clar, even if he has something like KJ, i cant see dropping a boat of your own. i typically wont drop a boat unless the board is dbl paired. however, i play lower. i assume you have to be wary of such spots the higher you play, as you dont another opportunity to stack donkeys as often as i do. in other words, i can afford to drop a stack here because another idiot will make a critical mistake soon enough...allowing me to gamble a bit.

in hand 2, yes, i will still call $40 on the river w/ AA as long as the board isnt connected, flushed or dbl paired. i am trying to keep the pot small. i realize that i may well be behind here, but i also see too many donkeys trying to bump me off with ragged two pairs and underpairs like QQ. problem is, i dont know where i am with your line. i like to show some aggression somewhere early on to help me define his range. if he folds, so be it. i didnt like the way the board was developing anyway. and, yes, i take a note here...if i get surprised...otherwise, i consider it a fairly solid play, and i dont note solid players. if i open my notes and see nothing...i trust him because he's either solid or unknown. either way, i should trust him until proven otherwise.

What happens if he just calls the turn? Do i make a blocking bet on the river or do i just check/call?

if i plan to b/f, and he calls...i do whatever i think gets to showdown the cheapest. it depends on what i think villain will do. does he bet large? does he bet small? whatever gets it to SD cheapest. but, if i block, and he minraises....i seriously consider dumping.

Originally Posted by Clar17y

Originally Posted by Ash256

He's a fucking retard if he had JJ there, I'm not sure if that's what he's claiming.. I think something like Tc9c is his most likely holding, even though it's difficult to work out what he has given his line.. I think the river is definitely a call, I can't seem him c/ring KJ on that flop (Though QJ is possible).

But yeah, 3bet flop and get it in.

Hand 2, I like b/f turn, c/f and c/c just don't give you any useful information whatsoever.

I didn't think to bet/fold in hand 2, for some reason i instantly put him on a king and was absolutely sure he had it >.<
But i think you're right i like bet/fold a lot more too.

What happens if he just calls the turn? Do i make a blocking bet on the river or do i just check/call?

Clar

I like a small b/f, again, checking to him can put you in a sick sick spot.

"I didn't think to bet/fold in hand 2, for some reason i instantly put him on a king and was absolutely sure he had it >.<"

Heh, yea, everyone does that sometimes.


The reason that I feel as played the 66 is a fist-pump call on the river is:-

- JJ,QQ,KK reraise pre
- It's really doubtful that KJ would c/r flop
- QJ, which is by far the most likely hand would probs get it in on the turn, although then again he may just be a retard

I can't put him on a hand, so fuck him, he's full of shit.


Like I said, a big draw is the most probable holding for him IMO.

I used to think situations like hand #1 could be considered a fold but I saw too many people stacking off with AT, AJ, KQ, AA, TT, 22 etc in these pots. And it sounds like the players aren't too good on your network so I would stack off here for sure.

In hand #2, I would still call the turn. Shitty players love to bluff paired boards for some reason. Unknown = shitty. If he fires the river again I fold I guess. And a mini-raise does not equal strength from a shitty player. A mini-raise = some guy that doesn't know what the fuck he's doing, whether it's a bluff or a value bet.

Originally Posted by Galapogos

And a mini-raise does not equal strength from a shitty player. A mini-raise = some guy that doesn't know what the fuck he's doing, whether it's a bluff or a value bet.

i agree with everything you said. but, i would like to add a caveat to this part.

granted OP holds an overpair here, but if it were only TPTK...its beat by a minraise most times. minraises mean, "i dont know how to bet for shit, but i have the obvious best hand beat, so i'll just click this "raise" button thingy in the corner of my screen."

kind of like when you raise pf, and the guy right behind you minraises so fucking fast you almost dont see it happen. it may be a minraise, but its probably fairly strong. all i'm saying is, its worth a second thought...its not an auto--fold or an auto-shove, but it is cause for pause.

Meh, the folds are okay I think.