Getting check raised on dry flops

BB runs 26/22/4.3AF/7%3-Bet over a 180 hands sample, no history between us. The SB is a huge fish, which should widen BB´s 3bet value range as well as his flat calling range preflop. Of all those many hands he takes a flop with his check raise represent exactly 3 hands or 9 combos (or 15 if we count in K9o which is unlikely). Needless to say that he knows I have a hand here like hardly ever. To avoid getting raped in these spots, I could call/re-eval or just 3bet that guy. Whats a smart range for both actions? What if the board was 2s3sKc?


Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($26.55)
BB ($100.50)
UTG ($100.80)
MP ($59.90)
Hero (Button) ($50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, 7
2 folds, Hero bets $1.50, SB calls $1.25, BB calls $1

Flop: ($4.50) 2, 9, K (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $3, 1 fold, BB raises $11

Yea, he pretty much has air here always and so do you. That's why it's such a great flop for him to raise. I would need to have some sort of Equity to fight back here. He will pay off light I am sure, but you need to have something that beats his 66-88, J9s type hands if you do hit.

Call with hands that may showdown well vs his crap. Raise hands that like folds like A high FD's and OESDs, but will still have equity when called.

if he s bluffing he wouldn t bluff this big

Originally Posted by XTR1000

To avoid getting raped in these spots, I could call/re-eval or just 3bet that guy. Whats a smart range for both actions? What if the board was 2s3sKc?

I'm folding here a lot. I'm not 3betting here often without a K. Like to hear others' input on this.

I find 50nl at Full Tilt to be pretty nitty in spots like this, meaning that while he doesn't often have the nuts, he's like to have Kx or TT-QQ minimum to make this play. He doesn't seem likely to play this way with 88/77 type hands, but it's possible.

Just folding isn't getting raped, imo, at least not without some history/meta vs. this villain.

I'm currently just playing my way back into pokerz after some serious time off. Just trying to get involved in FTR discussions again to work on my thinking about the game. So take my post with a big grain of salt.

If you don't have a decent read on villains postflop aggression I wouldn't go with this hand, but rather call something with 5 outs or so to a K, or some backdoor draws.

Yea, I´m aware that my actual holding isn´t great, I was just trying to figure out how to adjust in general.

In irc cbetting less was mentioned and checking back something with a wee bit of SD value like a high no draw.

For 3betting Id suppose a gutshot + bdfd is a good candidate

What´s my plan if I had Q9s or TT?

I think the board is dry enough that I wouldn't 3bet any hand.

This spot sucks. I don't cbet many 3-way pots w/o connecting somehow, although when I do it's usually in position. When I get played back at, I just fold.

I posted on stealing in the BC, and toward the bottom are a bunch of filters I worked on in HEM. You might find the results interesting, but it's only 9k hands - I've been working a lot on stealing.

Upshot? Stealing is profitable BOTH when you get two folds and when you get called. My winrate was actually higher when I was NOT successful stealing, meaning I'm winning a good bit on the flop. I think the key on the flop after having a steal called is not losing the big pot. You can take a stab, but folding is definitely not a big leak if they wanna play back.

Originally Posted by Genitruc

if he s bluffing he wouldn t bluff this big

Originally Posted by minSim

I think the board is dry enough that I wouldn't 3bet any hand.

I agree with both the above.

I would just fold here unless you have a read that his frequency's are off in spots like this then you can consider b/c. It doesn't sound like you do though. Plus people tend to not mess around in multiway pots with fish involved most of the time.

yeah the standard for playing back here is calling the 3-bet and betting the turn if checked to or raising (in this case we want to have some kind of equity). That being said I would be giving up here because i don't think there's any reason you can't have a hand here in a 3 way pot with a fish involved.

Uhh, it's 50nl, standard here should be to 3bet. You only have to float against people who are decent.

I 3bet here like 80% of the time and show a ridiculous profit. He makes it 11, you make it like 24, it puts him in a terrible spot (the times he doesn't have a set obv) and it's a cheap bluff for you.

Also, when you flat the flop and bet the turn, you may end up convincing yourself to barrel the river, whereas you never run into that problem when you 3bet the flop since you can't ever expect anyone at 50nl to be capable of floating this oop in order to bluff the river if you check behind the turn.

Originally Posted by Marshall28

Uhh, it's 50nl, standard here should be to 3bet. You only have to float against people who are decent.

I 3bet here like 80% of the time and show a ridiculous profit. He makes it 11, you make it like 24, it puts him in a terrible spot (the times he doesn't have a set obv) and it's a cheap bluff for you.

Also, when you flat the flop and bet the turn, you may end up convincing yourself to barrel the river, whereas you never run into that problem when you 3bet the flop since you can't ever expect anyone at 50nl to be capable of floating this oop in order to bluff the river if you check behind the turn.

Equally as important is identifying players like ^^^ and c/r KQ/KJ here vs them. Seriously, aggro spazz capable players do crazy things when you c/r K-high boards.

As for 3betting, I feel like his most likely c/r hands here are prob QJ/JT which we are ahead of. I'd rather just 3bet nonsense 56 or something. If I was going to float, I'd probably just wait for a hand like A7cc,ss or dd here.

You're betting into two ppl, and his sizing isn't messing around. I'd just fold.

80% of players at 400nl aren't capable of the line of thinking I described in my previous post. You think anyone at 50nl can do that? LOL.

And if you're value calling A7 here, it essentially commits you to calling all the way down, otherwise there's about zero incentive to float instead of 3bet since when you float you just allow the hands you are ahead of to catch up on occasion.

i think the incentive to float a7 instead of 3-betting is that we also have some backdoors and potentially an over....that equity is part of the reason we're floating and not 3-betting. And yeah if we're gonna 3-bet i guess 56 is the same, though if he just calls and we bink a flushdraw or a pair we can shove the turn with outs.

Also a thought, you say "He makes it 11, you make it like 24, it puts him in a terrible spot" but isn't the random 50nl player pretty polarized here? I don't see too many medium strength hands or semi-bluffs that people take that line with in 3 way raised pots so it's either an easy fold or an easy call/shove for them.

Originally Posted by meeloche

Originally Posted by minSim

I think the board is dry enough that I wouldn't 3bet any hand.

I agree with both the above.

You wouldn't 3bet a set for value, but do you think he realizes that? And doesn't that make it a good spot to 3b-bluff for the same reasons?

I'd just 3b this pretty small. I'd expect that type to squeeze pretty much anything that could have hit that board in any way.
If he was the type who c/raises 9x I'd just give up, but villain looks reg-ish.

Fold to the flop raise.

If I was going to bluff here versus a good player id certainly call the flop, but 3betting the flop versus someone who plays 50nl seems fine. Note we can have much better hands here to bluff, including gutshots, not to mention runner runner fd's.