got lost on KK

Here is the hand history. I could not even dream of ranges for my opponents. What would you have done here, and why? BTW, SB is confirmed maniac/call station who has recently stacked me when he called a big prf raise and a pot-sized flop bet with 46o gut shot - yep, hit straight on turn. Other villain is LAG. Looking back, I should have been betting, but how would I know this on the turn/river?

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($10.44)
UTG 1 ($9.43)
CO ($7.02)
Hero ($9.60)
SB ($9.74)
BB ($9.69)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is BTN
2 folds, CO raises to $0.2, Hero raises to $0.75, SB calls $0.7, 1 fold, CO calls $0.55

Flop: ($2.35, 3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero bets $2.35, SB calls $2.35, CO calls $2.35

Turn: ($9.4, 3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero checks

River: ($9.4, 3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero checks

Final Pot: $9.4
CO shows:
Hero shows:
SB shows:

Hero wins $8.93 ( won $5.83 )
CO lost -$3.10
SB lost -$3.10

bet the turn vs a calling station. The board is way too draw heavy to be giving free cards, especially to 2 villains.

I don't mind the way you played it. In a HU pot I would fire the turn but against two opponents I like the check. The river was unfortunately the worst card for your hand.

go all in on the turn. the pot's big so you want to protect your equity against draws and worse pocket pairs, which still might call. and it's less likely they have u beat with that board and how loose they are.

Originally Posted by benny999

go all in on the turn. the pot's big so you want to protect your equity against draws and worse pocket pairs, which still might call. and it's less likely they have u beat with that board and how loose they are.

It's unlikely I'm beat 'cuz they're loose? I would think either villain was just as likely to have something crazy like T6 as big draw. LAG/maniac was 78/22/2.9. The other was 45/5/1.5. I realize now I should have fired the turn, but I could easily have been drawing to two outs on the river.

Do you really think you're ahead, here? Do you always fire against scare cards in this spot? I'll admit it, I was just shaking my head on the turn. I had no clue what anybody might have. Or what to do. Or what I should be thinking. Or why I should think it.

P. S. I busted SB maniac about an hour after this hand when he rr'd my flopped set of Q's.

Originally Posted by benny999

go all in on the turn. the pot's big so you want to protect your equity against draws and worse pocket pairs, which still might call. and it's less likely they have u beat with that board and how loose they are.

You don't think this'll overrep our hand thereby screwing up our equity?

none of that "bet the turn" crap makes any sense at a 10NL table. these LAGs are VERY likely to have either a 5 or a 6 (to which you are almost dead) or two hearts (but, how can you tell, they call and bet eveything).

i can see exactly why you were "lost" in this hand, given your villains.

i dont like double paired boards...ever. and, especially not at microstakes against two bonafide donkshits.

you cant fold here, but its hard to be aggressive when you busted up a RR pf and a psb on the flop and still didnt drive anyone off.

one exception...i try and abide by the rule "be willing to stack off overpairs at 10NL." but, thats hard on a double paired board when you cant narrow ranges with RRes. if you abide by that rule, too, then you need to be the aggressor here, and keep pushing. i mean, if you are not folding, no matter what they do, then, you need to keep the initiative.

this is a tough spot for a micro-player because you are caught squarely in between a "protect your hand" and "pot control" situation, imo.

the real problem is that because micro-players will play so much crap, its hard to ever drop KK w/o an A on the board. and when a board double pairs, you have no clue as to where you stand, especially if your villains are loose.

be thankful these situations dont come up too often. even had you lost this one, you should be able to make up for that relatively soon enough.

Originally Posted by benny999

go all in on the turn. the pot's big so you want to protect your equity against draws and worse pocket pairs, which still might call. and it's less likely they have u beat with that board and how loose they are.

I'd say they are MORE likely to have a 5 or 6 given how loose they are,than someone than is tight. Yet at the same time, I agree their range for calling that flop is much wider.

I don't mind how this hand is played though. Robb what would you have done on a blank river (Q, or T or something) if one of villains pushed all in? I think if you're ready to call there then you should just stick it in on turn and price the draws.

I bet the $6 on the turn for value / information and re-evaluate river.
Given the drawy and paired flop their range's huge. I think it's best to find out where we stand early it hand. Even the non maniacal players at 10NL could call your flop bet with just overs imo.

Originally Posted by Jupit3r

I bet the $6 on the turn for value / information and re-evaluate river.

we only have like $6 behind.. no need to re-evaluate

Originally Posted by Jupit3r

I bet the $6 on the turn for value / information and re-evaluate river.
Given the drawy and paired flop their range's huge. I think it's best to find out where we stand early it hand. Even the non maniacal players at 10NL could call your flop bet with just overs imo.

you are not betting for "value" here. how can you be sure you are ahead? thats the only time you bet for value. otherwise, you are trying to drive others out or protect against draws...often both.

Originally Posted by griffey24

I don't mind how this hand is played though. Robb what would you have done on a blank river (Q, or T or something) if one of villains pushed all in? I think if you're ready to call there then you should just stick it in on turn and price the draws.

Wow - tough one. SB was most likely to go all-in, so say he shoves. That's about $9.50 in pot plus $6 from him, so $15.50 against $6 to call. I probably shove all-in, eyes closed, praying to the poker gods to save me. It's close. I might just have gotten away from it. But probably call.

WP. The odds of one of these players having a 5 or a 6 is easily high enough for a push on this turn to be suicide. I feel that this is simply one of those situations where an overpair gets screwed. Yes, there are draws a plenty, but there are also two villains in a micro game and you're losing too often.

i should've been more specific. im saying when the board is paired, it's statistically less likely somebody holds one of those cards...ya, they have many possible 5x and 6x hands in their range, but they also have like any two suited or connected cards.

Board: 5h 6h 6d 5d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.603% 38.60% 00.00% 2432 0.00 { KhKs }
Hand 1: 35.476% 33.75% 01.73% 2126 109.00 { 99, Ah6h, 85s, 75s, 65s }
Hand 2: 25.921% 24.19% 01.73% 1524 109.00 { 77, Kh7h, 87s, 64s, 54s }

if my thinking is right, in this case, giving a free card costs .6 x $9, or about $6. with $6 behind, and a good chance of getting called by worse, even this conservative range shows pushing is a good play.
i hate giving free cards in big pots when you have equity like this.

Bigger raise pre-flop.

I would just shove because I can't put them on dick and I'm not folding.

Originally Posted by Fnord

I would just shove because I can't put them on dick and I'm not folding.

there's the only part you need to remember against these villains. and, since you arent folding, you may as well be shoving.

i like benny's math, but it doesnt change what i do at a microstakes game against such loose/LAGgy opponents. no offense to benny.

You played it fine.