A Hand from my first $100 session

Opp is 29/19/4. My guess was he is on a draw, but I still think this is bad. What's better? To me it looked like he was trying to bet/3bet with his pot sized flop bet so I decided to call, call again, and then call again. I really hated the way I played this.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($172)
CO ($37.55)
Hero ($132)
SB ($88)
BB ($86.85)
UTG ($85.20)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6, 8. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
3 folds, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) 8, 3, 7 (2 players)
BB bets $8, Hero calls $8.

Turn: ($24.50) 2 (2 players)
BB bets $20, Hero calls $20.

River: ($64.50) 3 (2 players)
BB calls $54.85 (All-In), Hero calls $54.85.

Final Pot: $174.20

I'd just fold the turn.

reraise flop.

I agree, raise flop or fold turn. I think u need a better read to do this, like if he bets draws all 3 streets. that's rare from my experience at lower stakes.

Originally Posted by dan

reraise flop.

Care to explain at all? Im not saying its good or bad as Im not sure how Id play this hand really, but if you are going to post atleast give some rationale as it would help a lot of us, me included.

If we raise this flop how do we handle a 3bet? What hands are we getting value out of by raising, or is the raise for protection?

Just fold the flop, you didn't raise this hand so that you could play for stacks with a pair of eights and a six kicker. Against the type of opponent that you described, I agree that he's quite likely to be on a draw. I'm even going to assume that you won the hand and stacked him but here's the thing. If he does have a made hand, you're in really shitty shape. If he has a draw, not only does he have a ton of outs vs. you, but you have no idea which overcards he actually has so you're very likely to make a mistake on the turn or the river. Making these type of calldowns just isn't profitable.

BTW raising the flop is horrible, the villain is sure as hell representing a better hand than 86 so you guys realize a flop raise turns your hand into a complete bluff right? In general, unless you have a super-solid read I think it's a pretty terrible spot to bluff when a guy makes a pot-sized lead into the pre-flop raiser. If hero wants to stay in the hand I like a flop call far better than a raise.

Hmmm, very tough spot. Folding the flop is really bad against a player this aggressive. I don't like a flop raise because so often he shoves back with a variety of draws as well as made hands and we really can't call. If you think the majority of his hands are draws I call the flop then raise a safe turn. So I probably push the turn here to force draws out. Very player dependant hand though.

Do not raise flop. Just call and fold to a strong bet on the turn.

Whats an average players agression factor? If 4 is really high then calling down is good.

Originally Posted by aislephive

Hmmm, very tough spot. Folding the flop is really bad against a player this aggressive. I don't like a flop raise because so often he shoves back with a variety of draws as well as made hands and we really can't call. If you think the majority of his hands are draws I call the flop then raise a safe turn. So I probably push the turn here to force draws out. Very player dependant hand though.

Do you think folding AK unimproved here is also really bad? I bet AK has more equity than 86 on this flop, against this opponent's range.

I do agree with you though that calling the flop and shoving a safe turn is the best way to go if you're determined to stay in the hand. Calling the flop and folding to a turn bet seems to be throwing money away against a player as aggressive as this guy.

the only thing you are beating on the river is a missed flush.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

I'm even going to assume that you won the hand and stacked him

Well of course I did, why would I post something where I wasn't bragging and actually try to learn something? /sarcasm

I think Aisle has me convinced of the best line. calling flop/pushing turn sounds good against this guy. Of couse the river call was easy because it was actually a 6d and not a 3d. But if I call the turn I'm not folding the river if it comes a nonflush card.

edit for what he had: K9 of spades.

Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher

Originally Posted by mcatdog

I'm even going to assume that you won the hand and stacked him

Well of course I did, why would I post something where I wasn't bragging and actually try to learn something? /sarcasm

I don't think you're bragging, but I do think you're being results-oriented, and you're risking learning the wrong lessons from this thread. First of all I'll ask you the same question I asked aislephive, would you also play for stacks here with AK unimproved, because if his range is monsters + drawing hands then you have better equity with AK than with 86.

Also, let's say you know for sure he has a flush draw and two overcards. How many safe turn cards are there really? How comfortable will you be, shoving your stack in on the turn, if it's an offsuit jack or queen, and knowing that he might have just hit his overcard and you could be drawing to four outs. The only turn cards which really look safe are an offsuit 2 through 9, which is less than half the cards left in the deck, and as we saw a 9 actually wasn't a safe card.

And of course, you don't know he's on a draw. Unless he sucks pretty bad, some of the time he also has 33 or 77 or 87 here and you're practically drawing dead on the flop. I just think that playing for stacks here is not +EV even against a super LAG like this guy.

I see what you're saying. You are right that I wouldn't play for stacks with AK UI. There are cards I'd fold to and but like you implied, I'm going blindly to his 2 overcards. I'm not sure I'm being results oriented because i'd have post if I lost as well since I don't think folding is smart, but calling isn't much better, and raising anywhere but but the turn sucks to...if you mean results about what he held, well maybe I am. But I put him on a draw during the hand as well.

I just think that playing for stacks here is not +EV even against a super LAG like this guy.

That's what I was trying to figure out. It's hard to do it because his range is so wide. The only thing I'm really convinced of is raising the flop is very -ev. I appreciate you posting again, I apologize for being a d*ck earlier.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher

Originally Posted by mcatdog

I'm even going to assume that you won the hand and stacked him

Well of course I did, why would I post something where I wasn't bragging and actually try to learn something? /sarcasm

I don't think you're bragging, but I do think you're being results-oriented, and you're risking learning the wrong lessons from this thread. First of all I'll ask you the same question I asked aislephive, would you also play for stacks here with AK unimproved, because if his range is monsters + drawing hands then you have better equity with AK than with 86.

Also, let's say you know for sure he has a flush draw and two overcards. How many safe turn cards are there really? How comfortable will you be, shoving your stack in on the turn, if it's an offsuit jack or queen, and knowing that he might have just hit his overcard and you could be drawing to four outs. The only turn cards which really look safe are an offsuit 2 through 9, which is less than half the cards left in the deck, and as we saw a 9 actually wasn't a safe card.

And of course, you don't know he's on a draw. Unless he sucks pretty bad, some of the time he also has 33 or 77 or 87 here and you're practically drawing dead on the flop. I just think that playing for stacks here is not +EV even against a super LAG like this guy.

Not nessicarilly, our hand still has better equity than AK unimproved. Part of villain's range includes hands like A3s, 44-66, and also hands like 56/67. I'd much rather have 86 than AK here. 86 can also improve to trips or two pair as well as the several backdoor straight draws. As I said before, this hand is very read dependant. I don't think I'm playing for stacks here against an unknown, but with a read that this person is a lot more likely to play a draw like this rather than a made hand I'm calling the flop and raising the turn. If he turns a higher pair he probably will slow down some realizing he doesn't need to bluff to win, so his turn bet will often times tell us where he stands. And if you just call the turn you have to call any non spade on the river, with the theory that he would never shove when makes a pair on the river fearing no worse hands are calling and no better hands are folding. This is all of course under the assumption you are facing a solid player, which often times is not the case. There are so many variables in this hand, but let me just say this. River bets are almost always big hands or total bluffs because most people aren't experienced enough to value bet too thinly.