Hand reading exercise!!!

rolonrolon is a pretty laggy guy, pretty thinking also, one of the better regs at the level. He's not too tricky or anything, he just applies a lot of pressure in places where you find him with good hands when he has air, and he can be spewy with it sometimes, doesnt love folding. He probably thinks im one of those 200nl regs who are okay and generally nitty and will bluff sometimes. He may suspect that i raise light on the flop but not sure. He has never overbet before.

What is your calling range here and why?

POKERSTARS GAME #9529336122: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2007/04/21 - 02:08:08 (ET)
Table 'Bellerophon' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: yudianto ($43.70 in chips)
Seat 2: forcewithme9 ($40 in chips)
Seat 3: mayhem920 ($1040.85 in chips)
Seat 4: rolonrolon ($199 in chips)
Seat 5: redgrape ($412.10 in chips)
Seat 6: ZeKGB ($215.10 in chips)
ZeKGB: posts small blind $1
yudianto: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [X X]
forcewithme9: folds
mayhem920: folds
rolonrolon: raises $6 to $8
redgrape: calls $8
ZeKGB: folds
yudianto: folds
*** FLOP *** [3s Qs 7h]
rolonrolon: bets $12
redgrape: raises $28 to $40
rolonrolon: calls $28 (pretty quickly)
*** TURN *** [3s Qs 7h] [7c]
rolonrolon: bets $151 and is all-in (thinks for 10 seconds or so)
redgrape: ??????

If he was an idiot I'd call with QT. Given the read though I think he's a level above and has a super strong hand here.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

If he was an idiot I'd call with QT. Given the read though I think he's a level above and has a super strong hand here.

I don't think he thinks im going to overthink myself.

Lets see I have rolon at 14/12/5.82. He also doesn't usually bet unless he has a hand, and I haven't seen him slow play at all. He may have AsKs here, but its more like QQ/33/77... So unless you have a boat fold.

rolonrolon is 28/20 on my stats so clearly sample size is an issue.

I have 1k on him, you?

he has 33 and u called with QT

Originally Posted by sauce123

he has 33 and u called with QT

No i folded and you don't think well.

added timing tells.

Originally Posted by Jager

Lets see I have rolon at 14/12/5.82. He also doesn't usually bet unless he has a hand, and I haven't seen him slow play at all. He may have AsKs here, but its more like QQ/33/77... So unless you have a boat fold.

1.5k hands.

i chicken out and fold most shit. calling A7+ (but given preflop i wouldn't play A7 vs a raise). so...any set. :'(

If you really think that he's a thinking player and he knows you well, then he probably know the only boat you have here is 33. 77 and QQ are probably reraising. So he's probably doing it because it has the most FE. I am pretty sure he has a Flush Draw. I still don't know if i have the guts to call with anything but a boat, though, especially in the moment. If i really thought about it i would probably call with any PP, any Q, and everything better.

edit: oops, i didn't realize that you cold called from the button and not the blinds. You are definitely capable of having Q7 and Q3.

* I think this takes more thinking than a lot of people are giving the effort, however i may just be being dumb. He just pmed me what he had.

if you play like me, i would raise flop with air, sometimes a flush draw (sometimes even a gutshot), any two pair any set AA KK.

now that he pushed turn i fold the air, fold the draws, fold Q3 since its counterfeited, call with AA KK

I mean i raised the flop with an FD or else whether or not to call would've been interesting.

What do you put him on gabe?

I don't really see him doing this with a boat as you'd probably stack off with a 7 anyway. Wouldn't he want to let you draw to the flush with a half pot-ish bet, which also can induce a raise from a weaker made hand? If he has quads then there are less hands the hero will stack off with but the likelyhood that he'll stack off if he has one of them is 100%, so there's no reason to play quads this strong either.

I'd say his range here is air/flush draw/7x/TPTK/overpair. I'd call with 87+, and AA/KK if I thought he's cabable of doing this with AQ looking for a hero call from Qx.

If we were at the river then I'd have to think long and hard about calling without a boat.

I thought this hand would be more fun for people, but maybe im just over thinning his range.

I had 86 with a flush draw. When he pushed i thought to insta fold but i was like why don't i think about it a bit.
It's pretty standard for people at this level, and truthfully any level to check/push any hand that wants to play for stacks. In fact, I'd say just open pushing here would be retarded if u had a 7 or set. + its unlikely he calls with a 7 unless it was part of a combo draw, unless he's really looking me up light, which is doubtful.
So WTF does he have here?
Well wtf is he trying to do? Our stacks are shallow, so is it possible he just wants me to fold? Possible, considering most monsters in his range are c/p. Well what does a FD do? A lot of the time he's just going to have to c/f it to my bet, and if he doesn't want to fold it, what should he do? Push? makes sense. In his opinion he probably thinks I can fold AQ/KK/AA here because no one ever over bet bluffs.

Is it possible that he just being a donk with a 7 or a set? Not likely, of all the hands ive played with him, he never tried to get super tricky or make a weird play like this, so i really doubted it.

Of course I folded, but afterwards i tell him it sucked i had 8 high or else i would've called. So he says pay to see and i say i didnt need to, i know you had an FD (being partially serious and partially him wanting to reveal his holdings). He tells me he'll aim me tomorrow cause he's going to bed and will tell me.
Maybe an hour after i post this he aims me and says he had 54s, and asked me how i knew, and i gave him this reasoning.

After seeing everyone's responses I see a few possibilities:
1. I was completely over thinking it and there's no way i should call here without a great hand.
2. I didn't give you guys a good enough feel for the player.
3. People didn't think deep enough here.
4. I thought really deep and was right.

So idk, tell me what you guys think.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

If he was an idiot I'd call with QT. Given the read though I think he's a level above and has a super strong hand here.

qft

More of these, please. My hand reading needs help.

ISF i think that is pretty good logic. obviously it's not good if villain can outhink you...
but instacall the flop lessens chances of pair of 7 + FD
and i almost never see an aggro play a monster or especially q-x like that on the turn.

Jager, I've seen rolonrolon bluff plenty btw.

I was thinking about this hand this morning.

I think this is case of you giving the villain more credit than he deserves; that is, believeing that this guy is thinking more deeply than he is. I remember you talking to me about what he said to you about his logic, and i think you told me he just said, "i thought it had the most Fold Equity."

This is not the same is "i put you on x through x, i thought you would think this, i thought the FE was enough."

The latter is what you thought he was thinking, right?

I just think you need to start thinking on the opponents level more when analyzing their play. And don't overestimate the opponents level.

No pretty much my only thought was its standard to c/p any hand with sd value here and he didnt and hes not tricky. And he's bluffy/spewy sometimes.

I would do this with any 7 against you pretty regularly...

That's because Danny is a calling station against you.

Why would a boat push on this board?

This is the exact line that I run into daily from shortstacked fish on flushdraws.
Kinda weird that he took this line.
IMO, it's a really fishy line and I will look villain up here with TPGK some of the time.

Originally Posted by sauce123

I would do this with any 7 against you pretty regularly...

What's the point in saying this?

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by sauce123

I would do this with any 7 against you pretty regularly...

What's the point in saying this?

He thinks you'll make hero calls with 1 pair hands?

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by sauce123

I would do this with any 7 against you pretty regularly...

What's the point in saying this?

He thinks you'll make hero calls with 1 pair hands?

I wasn't asking a question, sauce made a post that gave no advice whatsoever, besides acting as if rolonrolon is trying to out think me, which im 100% sure wasnt the case.
im folding a lot of K's in a second vs Sauce anyway, i've learned my lesson

it's possible that his point is that if you actually think he's a good thinking player this is an easy fold without a boat. DUCY?

No 200nl player pushes here, i dont think rolonrolon thinks im good enough to call light here anyways.

No 200nl player pushes here with a just hit 7, i dont think rolonrolon thinks im good enough to call light here anyways.

No 200nl reg (besides like 2 who are dumb) player pushes here with a just hit 7, i dont think rolonrolon thinks im good enough to call light here anyways.

Am I that drunk or is ISF posting the same thing over and over?

Post-whoring 101

Take notes

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Am I that drunk or is ISF posting the same thing over and over?

lol WTF server error or something at my school?

I fold anything that can't beat 7x since his line makes so little sense and it's such a big bet and he is apparently not a bad player.

Usually confusing lines between good players are big hands looking for a call.

apparently he is a bad player.

i said id push a 7 because there are few similarities btw me and redgrape's perception of rolonrolon

1) i play kinda laggy
2) theoretically im a thinking reg
3) ive played a lot of hands with ISF and so know he likes to call

therefore against ISF i think a push with a 7 is good, a push with a boat is bad, and a push with a flushdraw is good if he is on a higher flush draw...

on first read i was thinking Qx+FD. Something like QJ, QT sooted.

Originally Posted by sauce123

i said id push a 7 because there are few similarities btw me and redgrape's perception of rolonrolon

1) i play kinda laggy
2) theoretically im a thinking reg
3) ive played a lot of hands with ISF and so know he likes to call

Makes sense, except Danny's perception of RolonRolon was pretty wrong IMO.

Originally Posted by Massimo

Originally Posted by sauce123

i said id push a 7 because there are few similarities btw me and redgrape's perception of rolonrolon

1) i play kinda laggy
2) theoretically im a thinking reg
3) ive played a lot of hands with ISF and so know he likes to call

Makes sense, except Danny's perception of RolonRolon was pretty wrong IMO.

All i can do is go with my own perception at the time, but im 99% sure rolonrolon would not shove a 7. He's one of the more thinking regs but his move was after thinking for probably only a few seconds, a push like that to me would probably involve thinking a lot more.
In fact the more I think about this hand the more heavily i weight rolonrolon's range to a FD.

I first thought it might be a f/d, but I thought it might be a hand like 87 as well. 87 raises pre-flop, "to mix it up" tosses out a standard bet (not a cbet since he doesn have 2nd pair) you raise representing TP+, or a bluff since this flop likely misses him. turn is a gin and you can't POSSIBLY put him on a 7, so call with your TP.

yea I agree he played it super-donk-like so you can call with ace high or better...

Originally Posted by sauce123

yea I agree he played it super-donk-like so you can call with ace high or better...

idk if you're being sarcastic or not but this is what i thought it'd eventually come to. Although I think its more reasonable to call with the range gabe suggested.