How do you play this flush draw?

PokerStars Game #7187643481: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/11/26 - 18:08:22 (ET)
Table 'Salonta' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: eb_aladar ($291.30 in chips)

Seat 2: ktg37 ($277.95 in chips)
Seat 3: resetdave ($105.55 in chips)
Seat 4: redgrape ($102.55 in chips)
Seat 5: tiltbad ($106 in chips)
Seat 6: RiKDaYToN ($100 in chips)
redgrape: posts small blind $0.50
tiltbad: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [4c 7c]
RiKDaYToN: folds
eb_aladar: calls $1
ktg37: folds
resetdave: folds
redgrape: calls $0.50
tiltbad: checks
*** FLOP *** [5d Kc Jc]
redgrape: checks
tiltbad: bets $3
eb_aladar: calls $3
redgrape: ?????

What do you do here?



anything wrong with how i played this?:
redgrape: raises $10 to $13
tiltbad: calls $10
eb_aladar: folds
*** TURN *** [5d Kc Jc] [6c]
redgrape: bets $17
tiltbad: raises $75 to $92 and is all-in
redgrape: calls $71.55 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [5d Kc Jc 6c] [8h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
redgrape: shows [4c 7c] (a flush, King high)
tiltbad: shows [Qc 5c] (a flush, King high - Queen higher)
tiltbad collected $206.10 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $209.10 | Rake $3
Board [5d Kc Jc 6c 8h]
Seat 1: eb_aladar folded on the Flop
Seat 2: ktg37 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: resetdave (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: redgrape (small blind) showed [4c 7c] and lost with a flush, King high
Seat 5: tiltbad (big blind) showed [Qc 5c] and won ($206.10) with a flush, King high
Seat 6: RiKDaYToN folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Bet the flop, shut down if called. Value bet if you hit.

As played, you're rarely going to see anthing but a better flush here against most passive opponents. Not spewing all over the flop would have made this hand a lot easier to get away from.

I also forgot to add that the flop bettor was 16/8 over small sample and the cold caller on the flop (who eventually folded) was very loose.

I checked hoping it would just check through. I felt like the flop action was ideal for a check-raise though... do you not agree?

Originally Posted by Massimo

I checked hoping it would just check through.

Why would you hope it checks through?

Originally Posted by courtiebee

Originally Posted by Massimo

I checked hoping it would just check through.

Why would you hope it checks through?

because his hand has virtually no value in a limped pot.

check/call and bet/fold are your two best options on the flop. Just flip a coin. There isn't even anything really wrong with check fold IMO. You are drawing to a flush oop and probably won't get paid off if you hit.

there are situations where i would've folded, but like i said before, i felt like this was an ideal check-raise situation to pick up a few bucks... is this unture?

Fold PF, this hand has little to no value and OOP it is going to be a bitch to play. I dont hate the check raise as its going to be pretty transparent when you come alive, but you are building a huge pot with only a marginal draw and you are OOP. the difficulty you have with this is the reason you should be weary to play this sort of hands. As played you cant fold the turn.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

there are situations where i would've folded, but like i said before, i felt like this was an ideal check-raise situation to pick up a few bucks... is this unture?

i guess i dont understand...

why try to pick off the pot w/ a check-raise and, then, call the all-in? your c/r failed, right? the leading of the turn i can (sort of) understand. i guess you hit your flush and want to follow up the c/r, but when you get pushed over...w/ only 7-high flush, i have to drop the hand for that kind of $$ (maybe if villain had a $50 stack, but still...).

when the c/r fails, shouldnt you bail out to this kind of strength?

With the nut flush draw, a checkraise here is better because lower flush draws will call and you can win a big pot if you hit. I'd rather just lead here though with a weak flush draw and hope to take it down, and if you hit the pot won't be inflated and you can dump it to somebody showing a lot of strength.

Originally Posted by aislephive

With the nut flush draw, a checkraise here is better because lower flush draws will call

huh??

I'm not sure i understand how you can put a 16/8 on a flush draw on the flop, although his raise on the turn looks like a flush. The pot odds are like 2:1, you can't really fold a flush with those odds six-handed.

Then again, maybe an unraised pot shouldn't be taken this far.

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by aislephive

With the nut flush draw, a checkraise here is better because lower flush draws will call

huh??

Which part of that is wrong?

And I probably wouldn't checkraise here anyways in an unraised pot like this unless there was the type of player who limps in every pot and bets any flop when checked to him. But building the pot with a c/r semibluff with a combo draw to the nuts is a lot better than doing it with a weak flush draw.

I think what you were getting at is that it doesn't matter if the pot is big already, we're stacking a lower flush regardless. And I would agree with you.

I check/fold flop, your hand is terrible

Originally Posted by nutsinho

I check/fold flop, your hand is terrible

This is why I make so much money in limped pots.

TAggs have a HUGE calling gap here.

Betting out here is easy money.

people who chronically try to steal limped pots have been known to get called down by my 3rd pair or even king high; our hand here is worse than those

bet/folding is fine, check/folding is better

Originally Posted by nutsinho

people who chronically try to steal limped pots have been known to get called down by my 3rd pair or even king high; our hand here is worse than those

PLEASE CALL ME WITH CRAP HANDS!!!! PRETTY PLEASE, WITH SUGAR ON TOP.

Pretty much it comes down to 2 kinds of play in most of these spots and I think they both suck.

Guys who can't fold fast enough
Guys who call with any piece

With lots of money behind, I'm leading a flush draw into either one.

Also leading any flush or gutshot in this spot won't happen often enough to solicit a behavior change unless we're running hot or betting air too often.

More often than not, no one really likes any flop in these spots and we should make an effort to stake a claim on some of that money. Also, if we want to establish that we *might* be full of shit, cheap bets are a great way to do it.

when i call down with crap i have a very specific read on the players bet sizing or of the situation; obviously im very exploitable if im constantly calling down a player who splashes around a lot when i have any sort of showdown value

i think here it is fine to bet/fold as you suggested, and its also fine to check/raise the first bet...but once there is a bet and call in front of you, its muck em say uhh time even though your pot odds have improved...reverse implied odds will now be a big factor

as played id have certainly check/called the turn rather than led