HU versus LK_Revolt

LK is playing very aggro as well as me. On low flops we're both raising each other like crazy after calling a PFR. After 10 times i'd says LK Revolt has raised a cbet on a low flop 7 times. He has shown down air in this situation, as well as the ability to float my threebets on the flop with air.
This is the third time he has threebet me on the flop, the size of his raise is actually a little greater than the previous times (other times it was $110).
My call (which was almost instant) was obviously to shove any river when he checked behind the turn.... except maybe this one.

Shoving the flop is clearly an option, given his range though folding i highly doubt is. If you do think flop is a shove what do you do if you dont have a flush draw and maybe a hand like 33.

If there's a post saying "bad table selection" I was playing this match for the fun of playing someone good.

POKERSTARS GAME #11343933977: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($2/$4) - 2007/08/06 - 16:03:07 (ET)
Table 'Hanskya II' 2-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: heybude ($382 in chips)
Seat 2: LK_Revolt ($1210.35 in chips)
LK_Revolt: posts small blind $2
heybude: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to heybude [Qc Jc]
LK_Revolt: raises $8 to $12
heybude: calls $8
*** FLOP *** [7c 2c 2d]
heybude: checks
LK_Revolt: bets $16
heybude: raises $32 to $48
LK_Revolt: raises $72 to $120
heybude: calls $72
*** TURN *** [7c 2c 2d] [6s]
heybude: checks
LK_Revolt: checks
*** RIVER *** [7c 2c 2d 6s] [7s]
heybude:

P.S. I know this is 2/4 but i felt like this needed more higher level responses.

id shove flop like always

Oh btw i have shown air myself when raising the flop but i didnt continue with the hand.
I suspect he doesnt expect me to try some super high level bluff.

Also im interested in what you do if we have 55?

This is my problem with shoving the flop:

I don't think LK thinks im going to shove the flop with a 2 from what he's seen of me. I think he's way more likely to think i shove the flop with only hands like FD's, 88, Q7+. Therefore, he really can't fold anything to my raise if this read is correct. Although this isnt very relevant considering we are likely ahead equity wise.

Another thing is there is no hand he'd bet the turn with besides MAYBE a 7 or 88/99, although im not that surprised if he doesn't.

The last is I think i rep a 2 way better with calling the threebet and pot control is almost guaranteed to allow me to shove the river.

ugh last chain post.

LK_Revolt is normally pretty solid in 6 max, i know this, he has been super aggro HU.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

P.S. I know this is 2/4 but i felt like this needed more higher level responses.

lol. like the 3-4 high stakes players here dont watch the SH forum too.

I think what makes this spot more interesting is what we do with certain hands like 55 and if we have QJ without a FD and what we do if a Q comes on the river with the hand i have and 55.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

This is my problem with shoving the flop:

I don't think LK thinks im going to shove the flop with a 2 from what he's seen of me. I think he's way more likely to think i shove the flop with only hands like FD's, 88, Q7+. Therefore, he really can't fold anything to my raise if this read is correct.

he can fold bluffs, and even call with some worse hands. shoving flop is best ESPECIALLY since all that money got in there.

Against this play I am def shoving flop.

Nice with a HU post. I play 95% HU myself.

Shoving the flop seems pretty automatic, but often against a very good player (who also has respect for my game) I would 'pretend to induce a shove' with a minraise (not unhappy if he does shove) and then shove the turn if he calls, just to throw my opponent off. If you hit that flush on the turn he will never give you credit for it and if you don't, well he didn't put you on a draw anyway and will be scared of a shove.

33 on that flop I would fold or raise/fold depending on situation. If he reraised with air, then well done. However I would almost always 3-bet preflop with 33. 3-betting pre is good for many reasons: 1. Your opponent can fold 2. You can flop a set 3. You get to make a profitable cbet 4. It makes your game more aggressive.

I probably fold the best hand on the flop more than most, but even AK is so much better than 33 to play here (33 is behind of any pair and AK is ahead of any non-pair). Calling is bad too because he can draw out on you.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

My call (which was almost instant) was obviously to shove any river when he checked behind the turn.... except maybe this one.

Why is this a bad river to shove? Sure looks like you could have a seven...

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

The last is I think i rep a 2 way better with calling the threebet and pot control is almost guaranteed to allow me to shove the river.

IMO you can't rep a 2 here whatever you do. Why CC OOP pre with a single deuce? I would like never ever do that ever.

Isn't a reraise pre standard against aggro's?

Actually me and sauce were talking about this and the answer IMO is no, threebetting pre isnt standard.

People float way too much in threebet pots and play any pair on the flop to make threebetting here profitable. If we threebet 33, and the flop comes J74. We bet and he calls. We really cant continue and we've just spewed away 1/4 of our stack. We have no redraw so it's hard as hell to turn our hand into a bluff.

In fact, a lot of the reason we want to threebet low pp's s so our opponent cant just float low flops everytime. However, a lot of the players i play wtih aren't good enough to use the implications of threebet ranges to his advantage, so it's somewhat pointless for me to manipulate my range versus those players.

LK_revolt probably does take threebet ranges into consideration but there was so much raising on the flop it seems like 33 had way more value from calling pre than from reraising.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Actually me and sauce were talking about this and the answer IMO is no, threebetting pre isnt standard.

Perhaps standard is the wrong word for it. I still think it's usually the correct way to play it.

I don't think an unimproved pocket pair is easy to play OOP which is why I usually try to take down the pot right away. Now you usually have pretty close to 50% equity with a small PP, why would you like to pay for playing that kind of hand OOP without the lead? If you flop a set in a 2-bet pot, you aren't going to get your opponents whole stack very often. Small pocket pairs don't play as well OOP in HU as they do with more players.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

If we threebet 33, and the flop comes J74. We bet and he calls. We really cant continue and we've just spewed away 1/4 of our stack.

If we shut down after the cbet I don't see that play as spewing in any way. Even the cbet is for value. And the stack surely hasn't gone 'away'. Even if he calls, he is often floating with A high, in which case we might win the pot anyway. Sometimes we will also hit our set on the turn or the river and other times we will hit our runner flush or straight, so it's by no means 'game over'.

If I'm playing against a passive calling station I will never threebet PPs. I know I will win big if I hit my set and if I don't I can usually get a cheap showdown.

Conditions that IMO favor threebetting:
1. Villain doesn't call threebets light. This gives good implied odds when you hit your set.
2. Villain often folds to cbets in reraised pots and doesn't float 'by default'.
3. Villain almost never fourbets and traps with AA and KK.
4. Villain raises with a very wide range (>90%) on the button.
5. Stacks are over 125BB deep.
6. I want to turn up the aggression.

I meant 3betting QJs pre, it's definitely way more flexible/easier to play in a reraised pot oop than 33.

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Actually me and sauce were talking about this and the answer IMO is no, threebetting pre isnt standard.

Perhaps standard is the wrong word for it. I still think it's usually the correct way to play it.

I don't think an unimproved pocket pair is easy to play OOP which is why I usually try to take down the pot right away. Now you usually have pretty close to 50% equity with a small PP, why would you like to pay for playing that kind of hand OOP without the lead? If you flop a set in a 2-bet pot, you aren't going to get your opponents whole stack very often. Small pocket pairs don't play as well OOP in HU as they do with more players.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

If we threebet 33, and the flop comes J74. We bet and he calls. We really cant continue and we've just spewed away 1/4 of our stack.

If we shut down after the cbet I don't see that play as spewing in any way. Even the cbet is for value. And the stack surely hasn't gone 'away'. Even if he calls, he is often floating with A high, in which case we might win the pot anyway. Sometimes we will also hit our set on the turn or the river and other times we will hit our runner flush or straight, so it's by no means 'game over'.

If I'm playing against a passive calling station I will never threebet PPs. I know I will win big if I hit my set and if I don't I can usually get a cheap showdown.

Conditions that IMO favor threebetting:
1. Villain doesn't call threebets light. This gives good implied odds when you hit your set.
2. Villain often folds to cbets in reraised pots and doesn't float 'by default'.
3. Villain almost never fourbets and traps with AA and KK.
4. Villain raises with a very wide range (>90%) on the button.
5. Stacks are over 125BB deep.
6. I want to turn up the aggression.

Very VERY good post, the problem is most of my opponents i play dont work with these points, especially one and two, which i feel are the most important.

But really correct and awesome post on threebetting.

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

I meant 3betting QJs pre, it's definitely way more flexible/easier to play in a reraised pot oop than 33.

The problem with repopping QJs is it loses a ton of its value especially because we narrow down our opponents range to shit thats dominating us.

three betting is fine, buts its also good not to play every hand a particular way preflop (whether QJs 33 AK AA etc)

i run so good at 10nl flipz