I can't fold QQ

27/12/3
No reads.

His line looks like a set, except for the fact that every move he made was instant.
I thought about folding on the flop/turn, but then I thought about c-luvin's post.

I think I am a nit if I was contemplating folding here. Agree?

GAME #530513467: Texas Hold'em NL $2.00/$4.00 2007-04-18 07:54:00
Table Irene (No DP)
Seat 1: Thilde2007 ($605.00 in chips)
Seat 3: GraveDiggah ($349.20 in chips)
Seat 5: JL37 ($412.90 in chips)
Seat 6: 96Bullet ($125.50 in chips) DEALER
Seat 8: ornelito ($89.60 in chips)
Seat 10: aleksma ($222.40 in chips)
ornelito: Post SB $2.00
aleksma: Post BB $4.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to JL37 Q Q
Thilde2007: Call $4.00
GraveDiggah: Fold
JL37: Raise $20.00
96Bullet: Fold
ornelito: Fold
aleksma: Call $16.00
Thilde2007: Call $16.00
*** FLOP *** 9 3 5
aleksma: Check
Thilde2007: Check
JL37: Bet $42.00
aleksma: Fold
Thilde2007: Raise $84.00
JL37: Call $42.00
*** TURN *** 7
Thilde2007: Bet $140.00
JL37: Call $140.00
*** RIVER *** 3
Thilde2007: Bet $361.00
JL37: Allin $168.90

I would fold on the turn. Any weaker hand would c/c I think.
You're not good on the river, either a set, trips, straight or AA/KK.

I know we take this line to let weaker hands bet to us. But I'm struggling with these hands myself too. Everytime I call these hands down it seems I'm beaten at the flop or turn already. Instead of letting weaker hands pay it gets us paying as we don't know where we stand in the hand.

Betting/raising just to know where we stand isn't a good reason on itself. But is it any better when it prevents us from spewing money because we COULD be in front, but actually aren't? I'd like to have some thoughts about that.

Is c/r the flop better? or c/c?

Absolutely NOTHING wrong with folding flop to the minraise here. Your line looks strong and you are faced with a pot-building raise.

Unless villain is a donk then I'd feel like puking putting any more money in here after getting minraised.

I don't really get why betting this flop is good.

Isn't every worse hand folding and better hand calling/raising. Are too many turn cards scaring us?
Wouldn't a check/call line be better?

Would you play AK or 1010 any different?

Originally Posted by minSim

I don't really get why betting this flop is good.

Isn't every worse hand folding and better hand calling/raising. Are too many turn cards scaring us?
Wouldn't a check/call line be better?

Would you play AK or 1010 any different?

Doesnt anyone float at 400NL?

ya ppl will float, so i like the c-bet. checking is good to mix up or induce looser calls/bets, but i don't think it's any better, especially if villain won't put in any more $ without a better hand or you c-bet a lot.
but with no donkish reads i'd be a nit, and fold to the min raise.

I fold without reads.

I'm sorry, but I still don't really get the idea of why betting on this flop would be good if people are floating.

Say you bet, to induce a float. You bet, get called;
Turn:
1. When you bet again on the turn, the floater will reraise you and you fold.
2. You check, villain bets, you call (ok this is good, but what do you do on the river? c/c, b/f?).

I'm more of a c/c, c/c, c/f line. Aren't you getting maximum value of worse hands that way?

If that is worse, can anyone explain to me why?

Does it make any difference this is multiway instead of HU?

Originally Posted by minSim

I'm sorry, but I still don't really get the idea of why betting on this flop would be good if people are floating.

Say you bet, to induce a float. You bet, get called;
Turn:
1. When you bet again on the turn, the floater will reraise you and you fold.
2. You check, villain bets, you call (ok this is good, but what do you do on the river? c/c, b/f?).

You are describing situations where we are OOP. Thats not whats happening here.
The point is floating weak hands OOP is weak and usually sucks BUT lots of people still do it. Yes if we bet the turn and he raises we will fold, but usually this means he is ahead of us anyway.
In position a far better line to sometimes take is bet flop/ check behind turn/ bet river on boards like this where there arent likely to be many draws. You hardly lose anything to sets and you gain more than usual from smaller pairs who often look you up on the river.

Originally Posted by minSim

I'm more of a c/c, c/c, c/f line. Aren't you getting maximum value of worse hands that way?

If that is worse, can anyone explain to me why?

Does it make any difference this is multiway instead of HU?

Plenty of hands you beat will call at least a flop bet pretty often and often wont make one when checked to. By checking you also risk giving free cards when an overcard will kill your hand or your action or give someone a random 2 pair or w/e.
Also if you arent planning to bet QQ on a 9 high uncoordinated flop what the hell are you betting? Just sets+? Thats going to get pretty readable. Betting QQ here will help to disguise betting AK and 99 here.

Multiway its worse because there are more cards that will help your opponents.


In OPs hand I think you pretty much have to decide whether or not to play for stacks with that minraise. If you dont want to then fold it then. The turn will be an autobet with most hands he can raise with and calling it will pretty much commit you.

Originally Posted by Genitruc

Absolutely NOTHING wrong with folding flop to the minraise here. Your line looks strong and you are faced with a pot-building raise.

Unless villain is a donk then I'd feel like puking putting any more money in here after getting minraised.

What about when I have AA/KK in this situation?
Most people will say to just push flop.

Why does having QQ change this?

Don't fold to flop minraise, there's too many times where turn bet sizing can give away their hand. especially with scare cards to come.

I think QQ is same as AA/KK here...either he has a set or has something like TT-JJ or air.

I dont know if this is a leak of mine, but I never fold to these min raises since it could be anything, I always wait to see if they slow down on the turn.

As played I fold turn unless villain is a donk/bluffer type.

This check call to induce a bluff stuff has gotten so overrated on FTR ever since gabe posted that thread about KK on an ace high flop. That was one of the best threads ever on FTR, but it doesn't apply here. In that thread, not many worse hands would pay off a value bet. In this hand tons of terrible hands could call you. In general if you find yourself check-calling to induce a bluff a lot of the time, you really need to make thinner value-bets.

Where did all this check call talk come from?
I am in position and I never got the opportunity to check call.

IMO, checking behind on this flop would be horrendous.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Don't fold to flop minraise, there's too many times where turn bet sizing can give away their hand. especially with scare cards to come.

What does his turn bet (which was instant) tell you about his hand here?

I think high pair. Wierd way to play it= donk

27/12 is raising big pairs utg pretty much all day so QQ = AA here and still = u r owned most of the time.

I agree that calling the minraise is fine but assuming we fold if he fires the turn convincingly then I think it's slightly spewy since by flat-calling we look weak so even IF villain has some weird bluff with a small pocket pair of 9 10s type hand, he'll now likely read us for weak and take away the pot.

The only way to counteract this is by shoving the flop but I really think you're up against a set here very often. Ppl who raise 12% of hands are unlikely to limp 1010/JJ in 6max, even UTG, so villain's range is probably a set or a weird bluff with a low PP.

Obv sometimes you're shown a wtf line with 9x but I think it's a set more often.

Originally Posted by Genitruc

27/12 is raising big pairs utg pretty much all day so QQ = AA here and still = u r owned most of the time.

I agree that calling the minraise is fine but assuming we fold if he fires the turn convincingly then I think it's slightly spewy since by flat-calling we look weak so even IF villain has some weird bluff with a small pocket pair of 9 10s type hand, he'll now likely read us for weak and take away the pot.

The only way to counteract this is by shoving the flop but I really think you're up against a set here very often. Ppl who raise 12% of hands are unlikely to limp 1010/JJ in 6max, even UTG, so villain's range is probably a set or a weird bluff with a low PP.

Obv sometimes you're shown a wtf line with 9x but I think it's a set more often.

I agree.
When villain showed down JJ, I was surprised.
Someone with his stats is not going to showdown TT/JJ often enough for this to be profitable.

I just got lucky because he turned out to be donkish.
The very next hand, he pushed all in preflop ($180) with 99, and I stacked him with KK.
Ship it!
lol

I think calling the flop so you can fold the turn is terrible and it goes back to what I was saying in the "call and re-evaluate" thread awhile ago. Realistically, this guy is ALWAYS firing the turn, as evidenced by the fact that his turn and river bets are bad and turned his hand into a bluff, but he made them anyway. JMO.

Against an unknown, if I called the flop, it would be because I was basically committed to calling the turn bet / river shove, because you know it's coming. Reads/history could obv change things.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

I think calling the flop so you can fold the turn is terrible and it goes back to what I was saying in the "call and re-evaluate" thread awhile ago. Realistically, this guy is ALWAYS firing the turn, as evidenced by the fact that his turn and river bets are bad and turned his hand into a bluff, but he made them anyway.

Some guy who check minraises a flop im not going to label as making the same type of turn bet each type.

The turn bet he made here seems like a set.

imo this is just a case of being on the right side of variance.

Villain's info here is "I love my hand". Based on the info we have we can pretty much be sure he can't have a better overpair than us so either he has a set... or 1010-JJ apparently.

But 1010-JJ is a very weird holding for an unknown 27/12 limping UTG so most of the time we're toast when the action goes the way it did.

I'm not saying I'd actually snap-fold QQ or anything in the heat of the action, but in a bubble this is pretty much what I think of this action on this board.

who loves min reraising the flop

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Some guy who check minraises a flop im not going to label as making the same type of turn bet each type.

And I disagree. At the very least, I think it's coming often enough that you can't call the flop if you're folding the turn.

Originally Posted by gabe

who loves min reraising the flop

it's like fighting donkishness with donkishness. i like that idea.
but are you saying for info? i wouldn't fold if villain went all in after that.

have not read post, but me neither

Originally Posted by minSim

I don't really get why betting this flop is good.

Isn't every worse hand folding and better hand calling/raising. Are too many turn cards scaring us?
Wouldn't a check/call line be better?

Would you play AK or 1010 any different?

Whenever a hand goes wrong people make crazy posts like these.

We have a strong (overpair) but vulnerable hand. We get value because on a flop this dry we get called by any PP, as well as 67, 65, A9, 98, ,97, T9, A6 etc. We get bluffed sometimes... and we get raised for value/freecard sometimes and we get raised by sets sometimes. Given this set of possibilities the idea of giving a free card to a hand like A4 or KJ seems like a mistake lol.

I wouldnt fold flop to the miniraise as ppl frequently do this to fold out overs with mid PPs and mid/top pair weak kicker or even as a bluff. That being said I think against typical opponents and with a tight image you can fold to the turn bet.

Originally Posted by benny999

Originally Posted by gabe

who loves min reraising the flop

it's like fighting donkishness with donkishness. i like that idea.
but are you saying for info? i wouldn't fold if villain went all in after that.

i think if villian didnt know you minreraise and fold is fin...they arent doing it with top pair

not saying i use this much but it is in the arsenal

BTW I would have a hard time folding this ever I think

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-53729.htm

I dont think its too nitty to contemplate folding here after calling the flop raise, which i agree with calling. read his bet sizes and try to determine his hand on the turn/river.
i think this forum in general tends to have this idea that anytime anyone c/c pre then is any sort of agressive its a set. Mostly because people post i have KK and didnt get away when he hit his set type hands so much when in reality people dont have sets here as often as we think.
ps you owe me 500$ because i called you a nit so you called him down