i know one of your leaks

when you call a good players open raise in late position when you are in the blinds with a small pocket pair you probably play it terribly postflop. alot of times calling pre in that spot is bad enough by itself.

too many times you check call flop because hell, they only hit a pair 1/3 of the time!!! i see you people do this way too much against good players.

maybe everyone can post their hands in this thread today where they played a shitty pair OOP against the button or cutoff and we'll decide how bad you played it.

Originally Posted by gabe

when you call a good players open raise in late position when you are on the button with a small pocket pair you probably play it terribly postflop. alot of times calling pre in that spot is bad enough by itself.

too many times you check call flop because hell, they only hit a pair 1/3 of the time!!! i see you people do this way too much against good players.

maybe everyone can post their hands in this thread today where they played a shitty pair OOP against the button or cutoff and we'll decide how bad you played it.

I'm confused by this. We're calling on the button (so we're in position), but we're check-calling the flop?

meant to say on the BB

a lot of the time to a blind steal ill fold my pp if im the only one in the pot or three bet as a semi bluff depending on my opponent. Sometimes I'll call and c/r some flops or lead out sometimes. I always feel like crap when i take a retarded float line, so i tend not to.

I've started to just re-raise or fold my small PP's OOP.
I think it's -EV to call a raise from a good player while in the SB with a small PP.
You just are not going to win a big enough pot often enough when you hit your set.

Re-raising makes you the aggressor in the hand, which greatly increases your chance of winning.

On the other hand, I like to just flat call with mid PP's because you can float a lot easier with 88 than 22.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

a lot of the time to a blind steal ill fold my pp if im the only one in the pot or three bet as a semi bluff depending on my opponent. Sometimes I'll call and c/r some flops or lead out sometimes. I always feel like crap when i take a retarded float line, so i tend not to.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Open push every flop. Sorted.

If the guy on the button is raising light and often, I'll 3-bet most pockets out of the blinds. If he's raising tight, then I'll flat call, with the assumption that he has a stronger hand then and I more likely have a chance to stack.

If you do decide to call just make sure you C/R the flop lots - when you hit and also when you miss but there are 2 lowish cards out. If you have 44 and the flop comes Q 63 - C/R! if you get called thats ok because you'd play 33 and 66 the same way too. Don't C/R every flop just ones which he can give you credit for setting - its far less likely to work on a KJ2 flop as its more likely he hit and you missed.

gabe, I remember I started saying this like a year ago and you thought I was crazy.

I generally agree. It sucks for metagame, your equity generally isn't very good at all, villain can easily take the pot away with a second barrel, etc.

That said, some 'taggs' are really bad and you can count on them rarely (never?) firing more than 1 barrel unless they have something. Even then you still have to be aware of what kind of equity you're looking at, e.g. 33 on a 489 and your equity looks like crap against any reasonable range.

This count? Villain is SB, im BB?

DDJURA1 - Posts small blind $0.50
EUPHOLOGI - Posts big blind $1
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to EUPHOLOGI [8c 8s]
WTF_IS_NEMO - Folds
CJD45021 - Folds
MAMEDURI - Folds
BETUWILLFOLD - Folds
DDJURA1 - Raises $2.50 to $3
EUPHOLOGI - Calls $2
*** FLOP *** [Ac Kh 7d]
DDJURA1 - Bets $4
EUPHOLOGI - Folds

I dont really fold pairs to one raise ever...

ok ignore my previous post -- heres a real one, just as gabe said:


LANAKENT - Posts small blind $0.50
EUPHOLOGI - Posts big blind $1
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to EUPHOLOGI [4c 4s]
SPURITY - Folds
BABE88 - Raises $4 to $4
LANAKENT - Folds
EUPHOLOGI - Calls $3
*** FLOP *** [2h Ad 7c]
EUPHOLOGI - Checks
BABE88 - Bets $4
EUPHOLOGI - Folds

I honestly think its spew in most games to fold any pair to one raise...

Originally Posted by sauce123

I honestly think its spew in most games to fold any pair to one raise...

Your right, in most games, but sometimes it's seems correct, especially when you don't have confidence in your postflop skills.

I'm up 0.47 BB/hand calling with pairs in the blinds, which is pretty good, however I found a great example of Gabe's comment, opponent was super aggressive and I decided I had to look him up, what a retarded play this is...

Game #3805021893: Hold'em NL ($0.50/$1) - 2007/04/13 - 14:03:02 (UK)
Table "Zeus" Seat 3 is the button.
Seat 1: Acesrwild ($136 in chips)
Seat 2: blkjckr ($72 in chips)
Seat 3: bine1 ($57.25 in chips)
Seat 4: jocmancer ($86 in chips)
Seat 5: Legendash ($100 in chips)
Seat 6: vichy ($69.50 in chips)
jocmancer: posts small blind $0.50
Legendash: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Legendash [6d 6s]
vichy: folds
Acesrwild: raises to $3
blkjckr: folds
bine1: folds
jocmancer: folds
Legendash: calls $2
----- FLOP ----- [Kc 5h 5s]
Legendash: checks
Acesrwild: bets $5
Legendash: raises to $15
Acesrwild: calls $10
----- TURN ----- [Kc 5h 5s][4h]
Legendash: bets $15
Acesrwild: calls $15
----- RIVER ----- [Kc 5h 5s 4h][Qs]
Legendash: bets $15
Acesrwild: calls $15
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Legendash: shows [6d 6s] (Two Pairs, Sixes and Fives, King high)
Acesrwild: shows [As Ad] (Two Pairs, Aces and Fives, King high)
Acesrwild collected $93.50 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $96.50 Main pot $93.50 Rake $3
Board [Kc 5h 5s 4h Qs]
Seat 1: Acesrwild showed [As Ad] and won ($93.50) with Two Pairs, Aces and Fives, King high
Seat 2: blkjckr folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: bine1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: jocmancer (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Legendash (big blind) showed [6d 6s] and lost with Two Pairs, Sixes and Fives, King high
Seat 6: vichy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
****HAND ENDS****

why did your name change on the river?

Originally Posted by Bode-ist

why did your name change after you were dealt cards?

Eupho, first hand you posted you should RR pre.

2nd one is opponent dependent. If he's Loose but good then that's actually a decent spot to c/r.

I'm just going to pull a lot out of my database and give you stats. one for every small pp!

no reads
POKERSTARS GAME #9420331285: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2007/04/14 - 16:04:15 (ET)
Table 'Tergeste V' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: orientJoker ($40 in chips)
Seat 2: pippo1975 ($156.35 in chips)
Seat 3: IMSUPERCREAL ($197 in chips)
Seat 4: jasso16 ($311.90 in chips)
Seat 5: testndeca ($241.75 in chips)
Seat 6: cdeez8 ($211.80 in chips)
jasso16: posts small blind $1
testndeca: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IMSUPERCREAL [2h 2c]
cdeez8: folds
orientJoker: folds
pippo1975: raises $4 to $6
IMSUPERCREAL: calls $6
jasso16: folds
testndeca: folds
*** FLOP *** [5h 7c 9s]
pippo1975: bets $10
IMSUPERCREAL: folds

again, just sat down no reads
POKERSTARS GAME #9488371518: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2007/04/18 - 16:16:40 (ET)
Table 'Erminia II' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: luc_recrue99 ($135.20 in chips)
Seat 2: Fun1510 ($38.20 in chips)
Seat 3: IMSUPERCREAL ($198 in chips)
Seat 4: mr.xanadu ($192 in chips)
Seat 5: u_shad_up ($230.95 in chips)
Seat 6: flaggstanga ($255 in chips)
IMSUPERCREAL: posts small blind $1
mr.xanadu: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IMSUPERCREAL [5s 5d]
u_shad_up: folds
flaggstanga: folds
luc_recrue99: raises $4 to $6
Fun1510: folds
IMSUPERCREAL: calls $5
mr.xanadu: folds
*** FLOP *** [4c Td Jc]
IMSUPERCREAL: checks
luc_recrue99: bets $8
IMSUPERCREAL: folds

villian is 10/10 after 30 hands
POKERSTARS GAME #9333546247: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2007/04/09 - 12:37:30 (ET)
Table 'Weringia II' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Zugswang ($259 in chips)
Seat 2: Peaks77 ($100.40 in chips)
Seat 3: evgis ($245.15 in chips)
Seat 4: Afg22 ($80.85 in chips)
Seat 5: IMSUPERCREAL ($233.60 in chips)
Seat 6: kevmike ($214.75 in chips)
Afg22: posts small blind $1
IMSUPERCREAL: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IMSUPERCREAL [3s 3c]
kevmike: folds
Zugswang: raises $4 to $6
Peaks77: folds
evgis: folds
Afg22: folds
IMSUPERCREAL: calls $4
*** FLOP *** [Td 8h Ts]
IMSUPERCREAL: checks
Zugswang: bets $10
IMSUPERCREAL: folds

opp is FGators, need i say more?

POKERSTARS GAME #9361649829: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2007/04/11 - 00:36:04 (ET)
Table 'Ekard' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: IMSUPERCREAL ($200 in chips)
Seat 2: TheMarkler ($102.60 in chips)
Seat 3: plumberran ($116 in chips)
Seat 4: gc17 ($227.20 in chips)
Seat 5: FGators26 ($206.60 in chips)
Seat 6: Darkest ($26.45 in chips)
Darkest: posts small blind $1
IMSUPERCREAL: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IMSUPERCREAL [4d 4c]
TheMarkler: folds
plumberran: folds
gc17: folds
FGators26: raises $6 to $8
Darkest: folds
IMSUPERCREAL: calls $6
*** FLOP *** [Qd 8s Kd]
IMSUPERCREAL: checks
FGators26: bets $14
IMSUPERCREAL: folds

opp is a 35/12, but his att to steal blinds i close to thirty. AF is 1.8 over 200 hand sample.
POKERSTARS GAME #9284494979: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2007/04/06 - 16:09:59 (ET)
Table 'Amalasuntha II' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: pablostar ($197 in chips)
Seat 2: krispydave ($337.70 in chips)
Seat 3: menexus ($343 in chips)
Seat 4: SALZHERZ ($525.50 in chips)
Seat 5: RoKaFeLa ($217.15 in chips)
Seat 6: IMSUPERCREAL ($180 in chips)
IMSUPERCREAL: posts small blind $1
pablostar: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IMSUPERCREAL [6s 6d]
krispydave: folds
menexus: folds
SALZHERZ: raises $4 to $6
RoKaFeLa: folds
IMSUPERCREAL: calls $5
pablostar: folds
*** FLOP *** [Kh 9c 4c]
IMSUPERCREAL: checks
SALZHERZ: bets $6
IMSUPERCREAL: folds

op is 28/16, 2.5 AF over 150 hands.
POKERSTARS GAME #9436437764: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2007/04/15 - 14:28:45 (ET)
Table 'Glauke II' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: chpman2464 ($199 in chips)
Seat 2: Roque1985 ($41 in chips)
Seat 3: IMSUPERCREAL ($412.05 in chips)
Seat 4: here2win2003 ($235.95 in chips)
Seat 6: jptaipan11 ($189.90 in chips)
Roque1985: posts small blind $1
IMSUPERCREAL: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IMSUPERCREAL [7h 7d]
here2win2003: folds
jptaipan11: raises $6 to $8
chpman2464: folds
Roque1985: folds
IMSUPERCREAL: calls $6
*** FLOP *** [Th Qs Kd]
IMSUPERCREAL: checks
jptaipan11: checks
*** TURN *** [Th Qs Kd] [2d]
IMSUPERCREAL: checks
jptaipan11: checks
*** RIVER *** [Th Qs Kd 2d] [6h]
IMSUPERCREAL: checks
jptaipan11: checks

Most of them are fine, either the boards were bad for a RR, or the op was supertight.

But 66 I would have RR pre or on flop. Also, we need to pay close attention to cbet% if we plan on playing our small PP OTB and act accordingly.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($30.15)
Button ($69.20)
SB ($74.51)
BB ($41.75)
Sissy ($49.25)
MP ($20.45)

Preflop: Sissy is UTG with 3, 3.
Sissy calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO raises to $3, 3 folds, Sissy calls $2.50.

Flop: ($6.75) A, 6, 8 (2 players)
Sissy checks, CO bets $4, Sissy folds.

Final Pot: $10.75

---------

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($70.10)
Sissy ($50)
UTG ($64.70)
MP ($47.75)
CO ($51.90)
Button ($64.85)

Preflop: Sissy is BB with 6, 6.
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO raises to $2, 2 folds, Sissy calls $1.50, UTG calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6.25) 8, 3, K (3 players)
Sissy checks, UTG checks, CO bets $4, Sissy folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $10.25

Originally Posted by Lukie

gabe, I remember I started saying this like a year ago and you thought I was crazy.

im not talking about calling preflop, i'm talking abuot how most people play postflop

one of the reasons that makes it a bad call preflop for most is that they suck postflop

***** Hand History for Game 5825244960 *****
$ 25 USD NL Texas Holdem - Saturday, March 31, 09:37:40 ET 2007
Table Table 127870 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 3: torkl252 ( $ 23 USD )
Seat 5: Feldhase7 ( $ 31 USD )
Seat 2: Kiton01 ( $ 24.25 USD )
Seat 1: xxspaldingxx ( $ 27.05 USD )
Seat 4: wharfstar ( $ 8.30 USD )
Seat 6: MrBoomspasti ( $ 25.60 USD )
xxspaldingxx posts small blind [$ 0.10 USD].
Kiton01 posts big blind [$ 0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Kiton01 [ 8s 8d ]
torkl252 calls [$ 0.25 USD]
wharfstar calls [$ 0.25 USD]
Feldhase7 raises [$ 1.50 USD]
MrBoomspasti folds
xxspaldingxx folds
Kiton01 calls [$ 1.25 USD]
torkl252 folds
wharfstar folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5d, 3s, 9h ]
Kiton01 checks
Feldhase7 bets [$ 2 USD]
Kiton01 raises [$ 6 USD]
Feldhase7 calls [$ 4 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qd ]
Kiton01 checks
Feldhase7 bets [$ 6 USD]
Kiton01 folds
Feldhase7 does not show cards.
Feldhase7 wins $ 20.85 USD

My entire blind play is a huge leak. My position stats show that in comparison to most players stats who are bigger winners than me we are even or I am better from UTG - BTN, however I lose considerably more from both the SB and BB than almost everybody. I also seem to run like shit from both of these spots.

This is a good point and something I've been thinking about lately.

The issure of calling preflop out of the blinds with low pairs is something I think is a leak most of the time for a number of reasons.

1) It's difficult to balance this play because it's so difficult to play other hands out of the blinds. Stuff like AJs and KQs are probably your best bets but they will be very difficult to make profitable. If you don't play them the basically every time you call a raise from the BB people should know you have a pokcet pair.

2) Your implied odds are reduced significantly because people raising ranges OTB are so wide. It's not often you will stack them and a lot of the time you are calling preflop and folding (the best hand) to a continuation bet on the flop. This matters less and less the worse the opposition is but it's still -EV.

A much better preflop play then calling is to reraise or fold. Small pairs are easy to play postflop in reraised pots and pushing up your reraising range has large metagame advantages as we all know.

I think to analyse postflop play in this spot we need to make a distinction between thinking TAGs and standard TAGs here. Thinkers are much more likely to fire second barrels, bluff scare cards and basically make life difficult for us. They are also less likely to get stacked by our sets. Standards will fire the flop and then check the hand down unless they catch a card.

With an underpair such as 88 on a 45Q flop, I'm much more likely to c/c a flop bet from a standard TAG then a thinker. The rationale behind the call being that I have the best hand the majority of the time and he'll check it down after I call. Even still, I'm not convinced that this is a good play. Assuming he has 6 outs he will improve to beat me by the river a quarter of the time. It's very difficult to prevent this happening since we're OOP with a marginal hand and we don't want to be putting any more money in the pot. Really the only implied value we have is if we pick off a bluff on the end but trying to do this will put us in some tricky situations and is hard to get right.

The major problem we have when playing these marginal hands OOP is that when we c/c the flop pretty much all of our options for the turn are flawed:

1) We can lead the turn, this is bad because it's a bet that only gets called if we're behind.

2) We can check and fold to a bet. Bad because it leaves our opponsnt the option of checking behind or bluffing on the turn.

3) We can check and then raise if he bets. Again this leaves him the option of checking behind and anyways it's a spew.

4) We can check and then call a bet. Obviously were going to be calling bets made by better hands a lot of the time. Not good.

Also we again have a metagame issue to deal with. Since the majority of our range is either pocket pairs that missed or pocket pairs that hit sets, it makes it very easy for our opponents to bluff us because they know that if we aren't raising - we're folding.

Originally Posted by gabe

one of the reasons that makes it a bad call preflop for most is that they suck postflop

I'm super interested in hearing your suggestions. Particularly some of the factors you consider when attempting to pick off bluffs on the river when the turn checked behind. Basically about telling the difference between these bluffs and value bets from hands which used pot control on the turn.

Actually one of the ideas I've been considering is check raising the river insteat of check calling.

My thoughts for this are that it is usually more marginal hands that take a raise/bet flop/check behind/bet river, pot control line. A lot of these hands can't stand up to the heat of a river check/raise. Obviously by check raising we take the bets from the villans bluffs too.

good post irisheyes, well put, and i'm interested in gabe's suggestions too.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Actually one of the ideas I've been considering is check raising the river insteat of check calling.

My thoughts for this are that it is usually more marginal hands that take a raise/bet flop/check behind/bet river, pot control line. A lot of these hands can't stand up to the heat of a river check/raise. Obviously by check raising we take the bets from the villans bluffs too.

I've been experimenting some with this...still not sure when are the best times for it though.
disclaimer- i dont think this was a great hand, it likely is bad lol. i'm still not sure what to think.
I realize I'm mostly folding bluffs...just had the feeling slag villain was value betting thin based on timing and stuff and wouldnt make a big call.

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1./$2.
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $283.55
UTG+1: $289.60
CO: $460.50
Button: $287.10
Hero: $274.20
BB: $219.45

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with 2 2
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $7, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB folds.

Flop: 8 Q 5 ($16, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $12, Hero calls.

Turn: J ($40, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

River: J ($40, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $30, Hero raises to $130

Originally Posted by Alexos

Originally Posted by Bode-ist

why did your name change after you were dealt cards?

Just keeping my super secret identity secret and I can't be bothered to convert.

I only call with low PP's in the blinds if the opp has a decent stack behind. Against someone with a high attention to steal blinds I try to 3-bet to take initiative. Against someone with a high flop aggression but low turn aggression I c/call flop and bet turn if checked to. A lot of TAG's can be c/raised out of pots on the turn if you can put them on a narrow range of hands.

One of my defense mechanisms with PPs from the blinds is to just lead them out on good flops since i'm also leading out sets sometimes. Once i get a read on how a certain player reacts, i'll start owning them.

An example of making it difficult for the floater

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $136
BB: $180.70
UTG: $887.05
CO: $470.60
Hero (BTN): $524.75

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q A (5 Players)
UTG raises to $14, CO folds, Hero raises to $52, 2 folds, UTG calls $38

Flop: ($110) T 8 2 (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $70, UTG calls $70

Turn: ($250) 3 (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($250) K (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $160, UTG folds

Pot Size: $410 ($2 Rake)

I've pretty much gotten rid of all floating in my game, as i said i just feel retarded doing it, it's such a stupid and easy to read line.

perfect example irish

best sort of examples i can think of

Texas Hold'em $1-$2 NL (real money), hand #157,993,105
Table Fargo, 6 Apr 2007 9:59 PM ET

Seat 1: C Mortensen ($133.70 in chips)
Seat 3: vegas774 ($50.00 in chips)
Seat 8: Pulda8 ($108.90 in chips)
Seat 9: foulk x ($97.85 in chips)
Seat 10: loloBUSTO [ 6S,6D ] ($217.30 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
foulk x posts blind ($0.50), loloBUSTO posts blind ($1), vegas774 posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
C Mortensen folds, vegas774 bets $2.50, Pulda8 folds, foulk x folds, loloBUSTO calls $2.50.

FLOP [board cards 2D,2H,3S ]
loloBUSTO checks, vegas774 bets $4, loloBUSTO folds.

SHOWDOWN
vegas774 wins $11.15.

SUMMARY
Dealer: Pulda8
Pot: $11.50, (including rake: $0.35)
C Mortensen loses $0
vegas774 bets $7.50, collects $11.15, net $3.65
Pulda8 loses $0
foulk x loses $0.50
loloBUSTO loses $3.50

Texas Hold'em $1-$2 NL (real money), hand #119,192,468
Table Kiew, 29 Mar 2007 12:15 AM ET

Seat 1: loloBUSTO [ 6C,6H ] ($101.60 in chips)
Seat 3: jvoa ($101.90 in chips)
Seat 6: olen.to ($50.65 in chips)
Seat 10: vesmasina ($60.30 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
vesmasina posts blind ($0.50), loloBUSTO posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
jvoa folds, olen.to bets $3, vesmasina folds, loloBUSTO calls $2.

FLOP [board cards QD,8H,4C ]
loloBUSTO checks, olen.to bets $4, loloBUSTO folds.

SHOWDOWN
olen.to wins $10.20.

SUMMARY
Dealer: olen.to
Pot: $10.50, (including rake: $0.30)
loloBUSTO loses $3
jvoa loses $0
olen.to bets $7, collects $10.20, net $3.20
vesmasina loses $0.50

And then my balance is pretty shit to be honest

Texas Hold'em $1-$2 NL (real money), hand #91,306,664
Table Wiesbaden, 22 Mar 2007 7:57 PM ET

Seat 1: Tepstach ($129.60 in chips)
Seat 3: yaoo13 ($123.25 in chips)
Seat 6: loloBUSTO [ 3S,3H ] ($100.00 in chips)
Seat 7: HardTOCheck ($48.05 in chips)
Seat 8: specialtrev ($161.20 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
yaoo13 posts blind ($0.50), loloBUSTO posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
HardTOCheck folds, specialtrev folds, Tepstach bets $4, yaoo13 calls $3.50, loloBUSTO calls $3.

FLOP [board cards 10D,8C,3C ]
yaoo13 checks, loloBUSTO bets $8, Tepstach bets $16, yaoo13 calls $16, loloBUSTO bets $88 and is all-in, Tepstach folds, yaoo13 calls $80.

TURN [board cards 10D,8C,3C,8D ]

RIVER [board cards 10D,8C,3C,8D,QD ]

SHOWDOWN
loloBUSTO shows [ 3S,3H ]
yaoo13 shows [ AC,5S ]
loloBUSTO wins $217.

SUMMARY
Dealer: Tepstach
Pot: $220, (including rake: $3)
Tepstach loses $20
yaoo13 loses $100
loloBUSTO bets $100, collects $217, net $117
HardTOCheck loses $0
specialtrev loses $0

this seems predictable with a tp hand

Texas Hold'em $2-$4 NL (real money), hand #158,833,845
Table Anchorage, 7 Apr 2007 2:30 AM ET

Seat 1: callURmum ($94.35 in chips)
Seat 2: Azhidahak7 ($113.50 in chips)
Seat 3: nh________35 ($179.30 in chips)
Seat 7: loloBUSTO [ KH,QC ] ($200.00 in chips)
Seat 8: schorpioen83 ($414.90 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
nh________35 posts blind ($1), loloBUSTO posts blind ($2).

PRE-FLOP
schorpioen83 folds, callURmum folds, Azhidahak7 bets $6, nh________35 calls $5, loloBUSTO calls $4.

FLOP [board cards 6S,2H,QS ]
nh________35 checks, loloBUSTO checks, Azhidahak7 bets $9, nh________35 calls $9, loloBUSTO bets $40, Azhidahak7 folds, nh________35 folds.

SHOWDOWN
loloBUSTO wins $73.75.

SUMMARY
Dealer: Azhidahak7
Pot: $76, (including rake: $2.25)
callURmum loses $0
Azhidahak7 loses $15
nh________35 loses $15
loloBUSTO bets $46, collects $73.75, net $27.75
schorpioen83 loses $0

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

I'm super interested in hearing your suggestions. Particularly some of the factors you consider when attempting to pick off bluffs on the river when the turn checked behind. Basically about telling the difference between these bluffs and value bets from hands which used pot control on the turn.

YES!

I usually reraise or fold with a semi-wide range when HU in the BB. Calling preflop and picking off my almost mindless cbet in these spots is probably profitable with any two for a competent button raiser, but it doesn't seem like many players have the balls to do it on a regular basis.

Bump, let's get the discussion going again. Here are my stats for when I reraise 22-TT from one of the blinds preflop when faced with a BTN or CO raise:

This is from when I just call:


This is from 400-1000NL. Note that in a 110k played hands sample this only happened 208 and 289 times respectively, so to really conclude anything from stats we'll need a HUGE number of played hands. Still it seems pretty obvious that the reraise scenario is profitable for someone with my style, while the flat call one is not. Also noteworthy is the fact that these don't account for when the SB calls and I overcall. I had some trouble filtering for this in PT, so I'm not going to post screenshots. If the result I got was accurate then the overcall scenario was a losing one too.

I think it comes down to the difficulty of playing a lukewarm hand OOP without being the aggressor, which is something I find very hard. Another scenario where I'm having difficulty with this is when I raise from the CO and the BTN 3-bets. I wonder if folding/4bet bluffing/semi-bluffing with small pairs and SC's will be a more profitable scenario than calling his 3-bet. I'm not sure if I should start a new thread for this, but I would like to see some more discussion of both the blind defense and the 3-bet defense subjects.

three betting is just a lot more fun too, but from these stats although a small sample size seems to show that gabe is of course correct.
I'd like discussion also on CO raise getting threebet on the BU. I'm playing pretty tight in this situation but i think if opp is getting out of line that its better to c/p flops than to fourbet pre because of the amount of time opp is misssing the flop.

Very interesting stats from HalvSalme. W$SD is the same but you're going to SD nearly 3 times as much when you 3-bet. How are these 3-bet hands generally being played postflop. I guess you're leading out on most boards and the opp has to hit quite hard to continue, but still the W$SD is the same which i find surprising.

Would you conclude to always 3-bet these hands in the blinds or are there certain types of opponents where calling is still better?

miffed - I would bet or c/r both of those first two hands when I get a blank flop like that.

Is that worse than c/folding? worse than 3-betting prf?

Originally Posted by benny999

good post irisheyes, well put, and i'm interested in gabe's suggestions too.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Actually one of the ideas I've been considering is check raising the river insteat of check calling.

My thoughts for this are that it is usually more marginal hands that take a raise/bet flop/check behind/bet river, pot control line. A lot of these hands can't stand up to the heat of a river check/raise. Obviously by check raising we take the bets from the villans bluffs too.

I've been experimenting some with this...still not sure when are the best times for it though.
disclaimer- i dont think this was a great hand, it likely is bad lol. i'm still not sure what to think.
I realize I'm mostly folding bluffs...just had the feeling slag villain was value betting thin based on timing and stuff and wouldnt make a big call.

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1./$2.
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $283.55
UTG+1: $289.60
CO: $460.50
Button: $287.10
Hero: $274.20
BB: $219.45

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with 2 2
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $7, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB folds.

Flop: 8 Q 5 ($16, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $12, Hero calls.

Turn: J ($40, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

River: J ($40, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $30, Hero raises to $130

'

I've seen this a few times at 100NL and it has NEVER been the J.

great thread- I think halvsame proves pretty damn conclusively that 3betting>calling with mid pairs OOP.

Heres a thought- We dont want to NEVER coldcall in the blinds in my opinion, but obviously we cant play our mid pairs well in this situation, and we dont want to unbalance our range too badly by never calling with mid pairs OOP.


So maybe we can look at a range where we are coldcalling in the blinds with hands that are of similar hand strength as the ones we are 3betting, but which play better OOP and tend to hit flops harder. I think I might try a range like this:

Call in blinds- 99, TT, JJ, KQ, KJs, QJs, JT, AJ, AT, 88 sometimes, AQ sometimes, various suited connectors I feel like playing

3bet in blinds: 22-77, 88 sometimes, suited connectors I feel like 3betting, AQ, AK, QQ, KK, AA.

These ranges in practice would be more fluid than this, for instance, I will never be 3betting small pairs against over-aggro donks who I can set mine against etc. I just think this could be quite effective against regs, as all of the above ranges are pretty balanced. This would also shift- as in 3betting more often against an aggro button raiser and calling with small pairs more often against a tight UTG raiser. These ranges would also be very different for me in 3-way pots as the value of calling with a lot of these hands increases significantly. I can expand on this to include some possible strats for multiway action later maybe...

Originally Posted by sauce123

great thread- I think halvsame proves pretty damn conclusively that 3betting>calling with mid pairs OOP.

or maybe hes just proving he doesnt know what hes doing with them postflop after he calls pre?

(no offense intended of course)

gabe- at the same time, if he is showing a pretty substantial profit 3betting them and a pretty substantial loss calling them, and it is clearly easier to 3bet them, and isnt particularly good or bad metagame either way... then I think, even for someone who plays them really well OOP, its going to be hard to overcome the math with good postflop play. Theres a really huge difference in his results.

No offence taken. You speak the truth, I tried to hint at that in my post as well. I'm not very strong at postflop play in general and OOP play in particular, and I think some of the strength in 3-betting pre comes from negating the positional advantage a bit. Suggestions as to how to continue play unimproved after a call are very welcome.

I think the sample size is too small but yes i think just within reason it seems like threebetting is a lot better.

I think it's important that if you call with weak holdings you should be c/r the flop more often then with just FD's and OESD and nut hands

Jeez Gabe, enough hinting already. Tell us how to make money already.