Im getting pwn'ed at 25NL

So, you guys have been nothing but incredibly insightful and I really need some help. Im steadily beating 10NL and have felt thanks to everyone at FTR that I make a lot of correct descions. Im really not rolled for 25NL, but when I feel like Im running pretty good at 10NL Ill open a few 25NL tables and take my shot. Im gonna post some of my stats and like 5 HH, if someone can give me some guidance or just let me know if Im running bad that would be great.

Month of Feburary so Far: (I included 10NL so that I could show you my stats there as well. I also do realize that this is a very small sample, but I really cant afford to play the game a lot if Im going to get killed at it.



Here is my 10NL position stats for this month so far:



Heres the small sample I have at 25NL:



As far as the HH, I just went into PT and pulled up my top five biggest losers.

Hand 1

Villan is 29/20 over 50 Hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

BB ($32.40)
UTG ($24.40)
MP ($16.70)
CO ($49.50)
Hero ($26.80)
SB ($19.80)

Preflop: Hero is Button with , .
1 fold, MP raises to $1.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $3.75, 2 folds, MP raises to $8, Hero calls $4.25.

Flop: ($16.35) , , (2 players)
MP bets $8.7 (All-In), Hero calls $8.70.

Turn: ($0) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($0) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $0

Hand 2

Villan is 69/24 over 45 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

CO ($26.75)
Button ($42.65)
SB ($8.90)
Hero ($26.95)
UTG ($24.30)
MP ($26.20)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
2 folds, CO calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, SB raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50.

Flop: ($3) , , (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, CO folds, Button calls $3, SB folds.

Turn: ($9) (2 players)
Hero bets $3, Button raises to $8, Hero calls $5.

River: ($25) (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $30.9 (All-In), Hero calls $15.20 (All-In).

Final Pot: $55.4

Hand 3

Villan is 34/10 over 32 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button ($23.20)
Hero ($17.15)
BB ($22.20)
UTG ($27.65)
MP ($1.75)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
2 folds, Button calls $0.25, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.75) , , (3 players)
Hero bets $0.7, BB folds, Button calls $0.70.

Turn: ($2.15) (2 players)
Hero bets $2, Button raises to $4, Hero raises to $12, Button raises to $20, Hero calls $4.20 (All-In).

River: ($34.55) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $34.55

Hand 4

Villan is 50/11 over 63 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero ($15.80)
Button ($13.50)
SB ($25.45)
BB ($39.60)
UTG ($28.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP with , .
1 fold, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) , , (2 players)
BB bets $2, Hero raises to $6, BB calls $4.

Turn: ($14.10) (2 players)
BB bets $32.6 (All-In), Hero calls $8.80 (All-In).

River: ($31.70) (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $31.7

Hand 5

Villan is 27/5 over 41 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

BB ($31.05)
UTG ($15.15)
MP ($15.90)
Hero ($28.25)
Button ($8.50)
SB ($81.70)

Preflop: Hero is CO with , .
UTG raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $3, 3 folds, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($6.35) , , (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $4.5, UTG raises to $12.15, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $23

be aggressive

stop limping, raise more. and raise more postflop too.

to small of a sample size to say you are getting killed, and you arent going to get killed at 25nl playing nitty. also dont play if you are underrolled and/or playing scared.

That JJ hand is horrific. What could you possibly be beating? Personally I fold the turn but you have to fold the river, you're never ever ahead.

Funny is that people who post about them getting owned is that they post hands where they are or think they have just been bad beated. Bad beat is variance and not bad play. if u want to improve post some of the hands where you didnt have AA,KK QQ etc. JJ hand was horrible. What u have to realize in 25NL is that a raise means top pair or better and a reraise means aces or better(two pair, set, flush, strt) etc. If you have a overpair and you cant put the villan on top pair/good kicker you should fold to a reraise.

Originally Posted by ZwiFT

What u have to realize in 25NL is that a raise means top pair or better and a reraise means aces or better(two pair, set, flush, strt) etc. If you have a overpair and you cant put the villan on top pair/good kicker you should fold to a reraise.

I guess thats the difference between 10NL and 25NL. In 10NL reraises on the flop or turn usally mean missed draws or someone just betting air.

I can post up the other loser hands for me, but to be honest i wasnt to concerned with with the 10BB loses, cause most of them resulted in me folding on the flop. Guess its time to go back and build my BR so that I can play this game reguarly.

Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

be aggressive

stop limping, raise more. and raise more postflop too.

to small of a sample size to say you are getting killed, and you arent going to get killed at 25nl playing nitty. also dont play if you are underrolled and/or playing scared.

I play NL10 FR about 15/11 and NL10 6-max about 18/15. I think you need to open with more raises. Position looks good - you're definitely getting the picture there, with cutoff and button significantly looser than EP.

I routinely get pwn'd at NL25, and the regs here all know I'm grinding at NL10 hoping for a serious shot at NL25 soon. As stated above and a hundred other places on FTR, be sure you have 30 to40 buy-ins before tackling a new level. I played NL25 like scared money and had to move back down twice. 20 - 25 buy-ins (as some forums/pros/posters advise) is not enough, imo.

looks like bad play + extremely small sample size. Your 25NL stats are basically meaningless.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

looks like bad play + extremely small sample size. Your 25NL stats are basically meaningless.

I relaize that now, and wont be playing untill I have 30+ BI. I went back thru PT and saw that I had somedays where i had lost 5-7 BI's playing 10NL, it just doesnt affect me as much because Im rolled just fine for 10NL. I honestly think that hands such as the JJ hand are because I get it stuck in my head that they have to be bluffing, and I start to tilt because of one bad play after another (my own).

As far as raising more, ive tried to increase this but I can never find the correct spots to do so. If I try to find those spots it takes me off my game and I start spewing chips.

at micro stakes when people bet, raise they're almost never bluffing. If they do bluff you'll should notice it and they become an ATM.

You need to do what makes you comfortable. I would take a shot with 15 buy-ins. Play less tables (I go from 4 to 2) so you can pay attention and see what's going on (what hands players value, how much they respect bets, etc). You'll see it's not much different (less spew basically). Also you can buy-in shorter, 40bb. People will give you zero credit, your decisions will be easy, and the money you're risking will be similar.

However, if you're having 5+ buy-in downswings (is plural right?) you would probably be better off working on your game and plugging these leaks (which is what it sounds like you're doing).

Originally Posted by jasons0147

As far as raising more, ive tried to increase this but I can never find the correct spots to do so. If I try to find those spots it takes me off my game and I start spewing chips.

OK, we play roughly the same number of hands preflop, but I raise 90% of the hands I open while you raise 50%. Play the same hands, play more positionally (tighter UTG, looser from cutoff and button), and raise it up if you're coming into an unraised pot.

EP: I open AQ+ and pp's for a raise from any position, and fold the rest.

MP: I add in AJ+ and KQ, again for a raise. Fold the rest.

LP: Here's where I open up, adding in A8+, Axs, KJ+ and some sc's, and mostly I'm raising.

Compare your typical lines to the above, and get back to me. About the only time I limp consistently is from the big blind when it's checked to me. If this doesn't give you ideas about how to raise more, list what you're raising and what you're limping so we can discuss it.

BTW, I limp very little compared to some other FTR microstakes regs. And some passive play can lower your variance and increase your earn rate. Look at stats from the "operations" threads, and you'll see dozens of examples of 6-max TAGGs: stats like 20/15 and 15/11. I'm pretty sure I haven't seen any 18/8's or anything that limpy from the greats.

I feel like if you're not raising 75% to 80% of the hands you're playing, you're not aggressive enough. But that's just my 2 cents. Others play other styles (though rarely as passive as yours) with good success.

regarding moving up a level, every1 struggles & tilt effects me more for sure, wait till you're rolled or set a tight stop-loss.

regarding your style - raise more, limp & call raises less.

On your general info tab in poker-tracker choose filters
- select any raise preflop (look at your bb per hand)
- select no raise preflop (look at your bb per hand)

post your results, hopefully convince you to raise more

Originally Posted by noble007

On your general info tab in poker-tracker choose filters
- select any raise preflop (look at your bb per hand)
- select no raise preflop (look at your bb per hand)

post your results, hopefully convince you to raise more

All I can say is THANK YOU!!

Raise preflop: 1.54/hand
No raise preflop: -.06/hand

Ok, so I understand to start raising more hands and now that you mention it I see where the opportunity could lie. If I understand correctly my only limps should be:

Big Bling
SC in multiway limped pots
77 and below when limped to in late position (I know to raise if folded to in late position)

Also, should I start to play suited gap hands like 57 and above on the button if limped to?

OK, so after reading what you guys were telling me I had to go test it out. I played for about an hour and 15 minutes. Heres my stats...looking any better?

still way too tight and unaggressive but better

Im playing right now, ill start looking for places to loosen up

Looks good, wd.
Try keep it up for a longer period say 10k hands and see how you do.

On the last 1k hands you played,
I think your aggression is a little low for 10nl. (but dont get too hung up on it.)
I also think 12/10 is fine while you're starting at 10nl.
As long as you look for loose games and bet strong when you make good hands (dont slowplay) you'll do fine.

(also I dont think there's any need to play gapped sc's.
Call 4bb raises with low-med pp and set hunt. You can also call raises with sc's if someone has already called a raise & you have pos.)

At 10nl there is almost no point in getting involved in marginal hands if you have the patience to wait to make good hands at loose tables you're getting paid. Gl

Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

still way too tight and unaggressive but better

He's 15/13/2.5, stealing blinds 20% of the time. That seems reasonable for a small sample.

IMO, this will work well. Aggression factor isn't a perfect read on your play, but I guess EZ thinks it should be higher, maybe 3.5 or 4, especially on the flop.

After the flop comes, we know 5 of 7 cards we'll have to make a hand. If it ain't good, yet, fold it. If it's good, bet it.

As a general rule, at NL10, I'm willing to stack off with...

TPTK: about 50% of the time
2 Pr: about 67% of the time
Set: about 98% of the time
Trips w/ decent kicker: about 80% of the time
Straight: about 80% of the time
Flush: about 90% of the time

So imo play your TPTK hands very agro on the flop, and bet any 2 pair HARD - it's only 4 outs to get any better, showing you're likely showing down with what you've got now - bet 'em out of the pot or make 'em pay to draw. With sets, bet right out about 2/3's of the pot.

With big hands like AK and AQ with ragged 9-high flops, cbet at least 50% of the time when you miss the flop.

Anything that seems weak, check/fold.

Never call unless you're really strong or getting the right price on your draws.

That will bring the ol' aggression factors up. Bet, raise or fold. Let the villains make the big mistakes.

I almost never make the "great all-in call." I force my opponents to do that. If they bet like they have a great hand, I believe them and fold without something very good.

I would argue being tight at lower limits is ok, higher aggresion post flop would help ya tho.

waaaaaaaaay too tight

Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

still way too tight and unaggressive but better

Ok, so Im going to sleep after this, simply because im tired of playing poker. After you said I was still to tight, I went back again and played another thousand or so hands. I tried to increase my range slighty.

Robb, I read your post while I was in the middle of a session, and tend to do just about what you had listed, as far as betting the crap out of TPTK, and Im stacking off quite often but not to often. Im also not making any of the hero calls, I did that for a while and they always seemed to flip over the nuts or close to it.

If you guys think I need to keep correcting more, I will keep adding hands into my raising range. I do realize that a large sample is important, and i will post that later in the month (I intend to put in over 60k hands this month).

I have noticed that just in these last two sessions I feel like I get more respect at the table and that I have much more control, something I realize is going to be very important when I move up to 25NL.

Last session of the night stats:

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

still way too tight and unaggressive but better

He's 15/13/2.5, stealing blinds 20% of the time. That seems reasonable for a small sample.

read spoon's blind stealing post again.

Overall, it seems you're winning over 5BB/100. Just keep plugging away and you'll be able to move up easily.

Hand #5: If you want to continue on flop, then put UTG all-in. Generally, if effective stacks on flop are 2x bigger, than pot, then be inclined to put a caller AI, if he checks to you.

Hyper's posts in "halfstack play" thread explain this.

hand 3 is as bad/worse than hand 2. the others arent that bad but definitely revise your plan for the AK hand.

this thread is in no way original but the fact that it is like so many others is awesome and makes me happy to be alive

You can't get pwned at 25nl, you can only pwn yourself

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

still way too tight and unaggressive but better

He's 15/13/2.5, stealing blinds 20% of the time. That seems reasonable for a small sample.

read spoon's blind stealing post again.

Overall, it seems you're winning over 5BB/100. Just keep plugging away and you'll be able to move up easily.

I'm only concerned we're asking him to change too many things at once. He's getting the hang of it, and playing aggressively in ALL spots is tough to learn in 2k hands. I figured we could suggest he work on flop aggression now, adding in more blind steals later. I think the flop aggression is most important first thing when you're learning - it was for me.

SkinsFan - awesome point about pwn'd - you can only pwn yourself at NL25! LoL. That's me. But I'm working on it. Nice new avatar.

So Im really starting to like the changes you guys have helped me make to my game. I know you guys say that results in short sessions are useless, but this is just from my lunch break. Needless to say I was happy with the results and had to post them up as a brag.

Very nice!! I especially like your flop aggression of 5.4. This means you're folding the junk and betting the good cards. This is also a heater, as you seem to realize.

Don't worry too much about specific AF's and changing anything else. Just play this style for 10k hands, focusing on playing each hand as well as possible.

With your new agro image, villains will start cbetting and pushing back some as they learn you're tendencies. Not all of them, but some - enough to get you into some interesting spots on the turn and river. Just keep on learning this style and let us know how it's going.

Good job!

dude, you cant worry about stats like this over 1k hands. play 10k hands and then look at them and make adjustments. rinse and repeat. but even 10k hands isnt much of a sample size.

Originally Posted by bode

dude, you cant worry about stats like this over 1k hands.

I Believe I have said this quite a few times:

Originally Posted by jasons0147

I also do realize that this is a very small sample, but I really cant afford to play the game a lot if Im going to get killed at it.

Originally Posted by jasons0147

I do realize that a large sample is important, and i will post that later in the month (I intend to put in over 60k hands this month).

Originally Posted by jasons0147

I know you guys say that results in short sessions are useless, but this is just from my lunch break. Needless to say I was happy with the results and had to post them up as a brag.

Now back to the task at hand:

Originally Posted by Robb

With your new agro image, villains will start cbetting and pushing back some as they learn you're tendencies. Not all of them, but some - enough to get you into some interesting spots on the turn and river. Just keep on learning this style and let us know how it's going.

Good job!

Ive picked this up very quickly, in fact my first couple hundred hands after my style change I was down about 2BI's, simply from my typical raise preflop, and then C-Bet flop. In the last few thousand hands I have played since you guys started devolping me I have been picking a lot better spots to Cbet with, and also not cbetting when there are three or more players in postflop when it was raised preflop unless I hit the flop hard.

Im going to continue working on my game, I had another great session tonight and at this rate i should be fully rolled for 25NL in less than a few days. I do have a hand from tonight that I was really proud of, doesnt really need any commentary but it just shows me that Im devolping as a poker player.

SB is 54/1
BB is 27/3

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG ($10.25)
MP ($8.85)
Hero ($10.10)
Button ($6.80)
SB ($7.80)
BB ($10.35)

Preflop: Hero is CO with , .
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, 1 fold, SB calls $0.35, BB calls $0.30.

Flop: ($1.20) , , (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1, SB calls $1, BB raises to $2.5, Hero folds, SB calls $1.50.

Turn: ($7.20) (2 players)
SB checks, BB bets $2.6, SB calls $2.60.

River: ($12.40) (2 players)
SB checks, BB bets $3, SB calls $2.30 (All-In).

Final Pot: $17.01

Results in white below:
SB mucked [Qc Qd]
BB has Ts 9s (straight, king high).
Outcome: BB wins $17.69.

i would say thats a pretty standard fold with AA in that spot. With that said, WELL DONE AA is nearly impossible to fold for some people, and something that you will need to do more as you move up. just remember that every hand is relative, sometimes you fold a flush when you know he's got a higher flush, and sometimes you call with a pair if you feel you are getting the right value for it.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

You can't get pwned at 25nl, you can only pwn yourself

This absolutely did not get enough love, I am adding it to my sig.

OP, two things to work on.
1) Never check/call flops or turns. Do more bet/folding on the turn and not check/folding.

2) Never limp first in preflop. Raise and C bet is automatic.

wow, a lot of responses to this thread. Just wanted to add that I took some time to give actual guidelines as to how I approached playing vs these 25nler's in my 1st blog post, most of the advice here has seemed spot on and may mirror what I had to say, but it might not hurt checking it out anyways. I usually have at least one or two creative ideas.

i didnt even realize that this was over 1500 hands. come back in about another 20k hands

Not trying to be rude, but does anyone read a post before they reply to it. Ive said it about 6 times that I knew it was a small sample. I do have over 20k hands, but Im not at my home computer right now, Ill be sure to post them when i get home.

Originally Posted by jasons0147

Not trying to be rude, but does anyone read a post before they reply to it. Ive said it about 6 times that I knew it was a small sample. I do have over 20k hands, but Im not at my home computer right now, Ill be sure to post them when i get home.

lol sorry that was just the first thing i noticed and i didnt really feel like reading through 30 posts.

Tried posting this earlier, but something was wrong with the Board. This is my 25NL month so far.

nice win rate sir.