I'm so good at this game.

I don't have a whole lot of history with this villain, but he seems to be a decent TAgg. Probably multitabling but who knows (not me).

I'm not getting out of line. Tell me either

1) I'm a genius (preferable)
or
2) This is an OK to standard call preflop but bad spew on the flop.

3) This is spew on all streets and I should cash out my entire bankroll before I hit bustoville.

or anything inbetween, really.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($518.80)
Button ($470.40)
SB ($444.65)
BB ($376)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, A.
Hero raises to $16, 2 folds, BB raises to $50, Hero calls $34.

Flop: ($102) 9, J, T (2 players)
BB bets $65, Hero raises to $468.8 - 261 for BB to call -

I don't understand what you want us to tell you, it seems standard to do this occasionally against a TAG. Obviously it's fine as long as you can beat one pair with the proper frequency when you make this move. Would you do the same thing with JJ or KQ?

This is fine IMO as long as you would play other hands like this too. (ie AA-99) I also think a raise to 200 would probably accomplish the same thing.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

I don't understand what you want us to tell you, it seems standard to do this occasionally against a TAG. Obviously it's fine as long as you can beat one pair with the proper frequency when you make this move. Would you do the same thing with JJ or KQ?

doesn't really matter...

The answer is yes, but I say it doesn't matter because villain and I don't really have a lot of history. What he perceives my range to be is of importance here, not what it actually is.

This will certantly get a lot of opponents to fold QQ-AA, if I am to do this I prefer to do it against a tight regular and show if he folds.

Folding AA/QQ here would be retarded.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Folding AA/QQ here would be retarded.

Some opponents never do that without 2 pair/set/straight , don't pay off the nut peddlers.

Looks pretty standard. Villain's sn?

I would fold QQ-AA here sometimes. I think your move is solid, and one of the reasons is the rainbow board. If it had two of a suit the high pocket calls more often sticking a lot of draws in your range (including big draw). With some of those draws taken away, it gives you more fold equity against the thinking villain.

I think you can get away with this if opponents respect you. If your image is right, I seriously think this is +EV against certain opponents even if high pockets are dominating their range.

Looks fine to me

Originally Posted by Lukie

Probably multitabling but who knows (not me).

I do.

You have told every decent villain that you have a draw and all the non-decent villains will call too. Why not raise it like you would every other hand and try to get it all in in a manner consistent with your other hands?

I love players who always assume that I have a draw when I shove on a board like this.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

I love players who always assume that I have a draw when I shove on a board like this.

That's fine and all but guess what - Hero does have a draw here and he played it like a draw. Not that its badly played because the villain obviously has to have something to call here and it puts pressure on him, but I just think that its a good thing not to get too predictable. Putting in a raise here instead of pushing will make others always wonder what you have when you raise flops like this - especially if the hand gets shown down.

I just realized that you do not have a straighf/flush draw. I don't like the hand now because nines, tens, jacks, queens, kings, and aces are all calling and are all in his re-raising range. The only hand you're hoping he has is AK. Of course, he can also put you on the same range but its hard to get villains to think like that.

I just shove this flop every time I want to raise, whether I have a draw or a made hand, and so do lots of players. As much as I respect you as a player, I think it's ridiculous to say that shoving this flop is "playing it like a draw" and making a smaller raise is "playing it like a made hand." You have to have the draw some of the time when you shove this flop, or else people will figure you out pretty quickly and your sets won't get paid off by decent players.

If you want to play these retarded mind games with your opponents where maybe if you raise smaller they'll put you on the made hand and raise bigger and they'll put you on the draw, or maybe they know that you're thinking that so you think on the 3rd level and shove with the draws and raise smaller with the made hands, and so on and so forth, be my guest. I'm not good at figuring out whether my opponent is thinking on the 2nd level or the 3rd level so I just keep it simple. If people habitually call me here with QQ/KK/AA because "I played my hand like a draw" they are probably making a horrible mistake. I can't speak for Lukie because I don't know what his exact range is in a spot like this but from what I know about him I'm assuming the same is true.

you have no idea if he is reraising light preflop so i dont like it. its fine when hes pulling that shit alot.

yuk.

You really play a flopped monster this fast?

double posting is the new dog shagging.

how well would a call and push the turn line work?

Originally Posted by Renton

how well would a call and push the turn line work?

i would fold a lot more to that line.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

yuk.

You really play a flopped monster this fast?

I would. Anything wrong with it?

He's basically folding one legit hand here IMO, and that's KK, and he might not even fold that. So I think this is spewish.

I don't think this is very good against an opp. hero basically doesn't know.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

I just shove this flop every time I want to raise, whether I have a draw or a made hand, and so do lots of players. As much as I respect you as a player, I think it's ridiculous to say that shoving this flop is "playing it like a draw" and making a smaller raise is "playing it like a made hand." You have to have the draw some of the time when you shove this flop, or else people will figure you out pretty quickly and your sets won't get paid off by decent players.

If you want to play these retarded mind games with your opponents where maybe if you raise smaller they'll put you on the made hand and raise bigger and they'll put you on the draw, or maybe they know that you're thinking that so you think on the 3rd level and shove with the draws and raise smaller with the made hands, and so on and so forth, be my guest. I'm not good at figuring out whether my opponent is thinking on the 2nd level or the 3rd level so I just keep it simple. If people habitually call me here with QQ/KK/AA because "I played my hand like a draw" they are probably making a horrible mistake. I can't speak for Lukie because I don't know what his exact range is in a spot like this but from what I know about him I'm assuming the same is true.

Wow...I am not being ridiculous or playing retarded mind games. Its simply playing your sets and when you want to raise draws the same. Do you overbet all your sets that hard? If so, you are losing lots of value. Sure, pat yourself on the back every once in a while when someone calls an overbet push but for the most part you're scaring away good action. If you make normal raises with made hands and draws you've just made your predictability unpredictable. Additionally, if he likes his hand that much, you can get away without having to draw to 8 outs.

I just think that this hand is not a good place to push.

Well this thread has many posters saying oxymorons.

Some say that you should push because AA-QQ will fold, and that you would play a set this way or KQ this way. I agree.

However the arguement against is that AA through QQ won't fold because you won't normally play a set that way? But if AA through QQ wouldn't fold why wouldn't you overbet there? It seems kind of oxymoronish.

I'm not a hugely advanced Shorthander but I'd certainly fold here with AA through QQ unless I had reads on my opponent.

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Wow...I am not being ridiculous or playing retarded mind games. Its simply playing your sets and when you want to raise draws the same. Do you overbet all your sets that hard? If so, you are losing lots of value. Sure, pat yourself on the back every once in a while when someone calls an overbet push but for the most part you're scaring away good action. If you make normal raises with made hands and draws you've just made your predictability unpredictable. Additionally, if he likes his hand that much, you can get away without having to draw to 8 outs.

I just think that this hand is not a good place to push.

Obviously I don't shove all my sets, for example I would never shove JJ on a J63 rainbow flop, but I usually would on this flop.

Your post baffles me though. On the one hand you think that when you shove a set on a draw-heavy board you're losing value because they'll only call "every once in a while," but on the other hand you think that if you shove a draw on a draw-heavy board, they'll call with top pair or overpair every time because your push looks like a draw. You can't have it both ways.

Also, if I shove with both made hands and draws, and you make normal raises with both of them, how is one of us any more predictable than the other one?

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Wow...I am not being ridiculous or playing retarded mind games. Its simply playing your sets and when you want to raise draws the same. Do you overbet all your sets that hard? If so, you are losing lots of value. Sure, pat yourself on the back every once in a while when someone calls an overbet push but for the most part you're scaring away good action. If you make normal raises with made hands and draws you've just made your predictability unpredictable. Additionally, if he likes his hand that much, you can get away without having to draw to 8 outs.

I just think that this hand is not a good place to push.

Obviously I don't shove all my sets, for example I would never shove JJ on a J63 rainbow flop, but I usually would on this flop.

Your post baffles me though. On the one hand you think that when you shove a set on a draw-heavy board you're losing value because they'll only call "every once in a while," but on the other hand you think that if you shove a draw on a draw-heavy board, they'll call with top pair or overpair every time because your push looks like a draw. You can't have it both ways.

Also, if I shove with both made hands and draws, and you make normal raises with both of them, how is one of us any more predictable than the other one?

Ok, I'm sorry for baffling you. I'll give it another go:

If you hit a set in a re-raised pot you can at least expect a decent payday. If you hit a draw in a re-raised pot you can expect to be charged dearly for it.

The only hand on this board that you can get the average opponent to fold is AK. So, I think its a bad place to push in this particular hand.

The part that sounds like an oxymoron is me disagreeing with mcatdog saying that he loves when people assume he has a draw on boards like this. When I replied and said its important to play draws and made hands the same way, it applies to all hands, not just the one in question. In this hand, I believe you're going to get called by a wide range.


If you want to push a set in this hand on this board after this preflop action then sure thats not a bad play. Its bad to push with anything less on this hand and thats the problem.

Do I make sense now? Sometimes I get a little long-winded and confusing so just let me know.


Lukie - sorry I'm not trying to bash on your hand too much, just trying to make my point here. And I think this a fold PF against the villain you describe. Most of the time you're either dominated or an A is gonna scare him away. From out of position, he just re-raised an UTG raiser so he is reppin a lot of strength.

this is a flop AA/KK/QQ are never folding and JJ/TT/99/KQ is always pushing and getting paid on imo.
Pushing nothing gets called and pwned.

So do we agree if Lukie had a set here a push would be standard?

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

If you want to push a set in this hand on this board after this preflop action then sure thats not a bad play. Its bad to push with anything less on this hand and thats the problem.

Do I make sense now? Sometimes I get a little long-winded and confusing so just let me know.

Yes that makes sense but this strategy is 100% predictable which is the point I was trying to make in this thread.

i like to save moves like this for when i actually have a history w/ the villain. when it's dry like this i don't like it nearly as much. just shoving for shoving's sake isn't as effective as shoving and watching him squirm because you know he knows that you do this w/ draws AND made hands.

so if you are trying to _establish_ history w/ this dude then good play. otherwise, much better spots for this.

If you're stimulating action correctly at these limits, you can jam made flops without losing value. Gabe does this effectively IMO.

Another thing to consider is a made hand on the flop is capable of pushing into what it knows to be a high pocket at any time. Villain may consider that Lukie knows exactly what he has, and WANTS a call. In fact, this is exactly what Lukie is doing if I may boldly assume. Villain may go so far as to deduce that Lukie wants villain to think Lukie is drawing, so that Lukie can take villains stack.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Villain may consider that Lukie knows exactly what he has, and WANTS a call. In fact, this is exactly what Lukie is doing if I may boldly assume. Villain may go so far as to deduce that Lukie wants villain to think Lukie is drawing, so that Lukie can take villains stack.

And people say poker is about the cards.