KJs w/ interesting river possibilities

villain is 23/20/4 over big sample. so my thinking here on the river is i could let him thin vbet me, which i think he is very capable of betting his TP, 2p, lower flush, air, etc. however, i dont know if he calls a shove here, which is basically what a bet is. also if he goes for half pot, he basically has to call my shove. i tried to make it look like i wanted to bet, but was just scared of the flush draw. im very curious to ppl's thoughts on this.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (4 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($333.95)
BB ($201.65)
UTG ($299.60)
Button ($317.65)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, K.
1 fold, Button raises to $8, Hero calls $7, 1 fold.

Flop: ($18) 3, Q, 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $14, Hero raises to $42, Button calls $28.

Turn: ($102) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $78, Button calls $78.

River: ($258) 7 (2 players)
Hero ....

You hafta shove vs a reg since that's what you'll do when you're felting anything else.

Shove, not even close.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

You hafta shove vs a reg since that's what you'll do when you're felting anything else.

This means we should shove when that river club didn't hit as well?
Also, assuming we end up here on this board with JTo, a shove is still profitable?

Originally Posted by minSim

Originally Posted by wufwugy

You hafta shove vs a reg since that's what you'll do when you're felting anything else.

This means we should shove when that river club didn't hit as well?
Also, assuming we end up here on this board with JTo, a shove is still profitable?

I was referring to the board not our hole cards. Standard range balancing.

A shove when we brick cannot be bad since it'll aid our image when called, and it's the only way to completely rep our hand. I theorize that doubling should be reserved for the times we're planning on tripling.

I do not like the pf line so I have a hard time tripling here, but that could just be experience and feel. If we're pfr then it's great imo.

That comment is gold for me wufwugy. It gives a lot of food for thinking on my side about balancing and how to credibly rep a hand/range.
Thanks a lot.


PS: what do you consider the worst calling hand for a standard villain on this board, and when the river bricks?

A shove when we brick cannot be bad since it'll aid our image when called, and it's the only way to completely rep our hand. I theorize that doubling should be reserved for the times we're planning on tripling.

planning on trippling every time we double will likely cost a lot of money.

I doubt villain is value betting as thin as you think on this river. Out of curiosity, do villains ever double float and show up with air here? I've never seen it, but maybe thats because they're folding to my river push or i'm folding to their push...

Anyways, I think he can potentially hero call with a Queen or 2pr, but he won't always v-bet them so I think shoving is best aswell.

Also, is pf standard ?

Originally Posted by minSim

PS: what do you consider the worst calling hand for a standard villain on this board, and when the river bricks?

I have very little experience in this kind of situation since I haven't played too much higher than 1/2, but I have folded KQ in this kind of situation vs a rather unknown solid reg at 1/2 before and I think it was good. In many 1/2 games you're gonna find that triple barrel stack bluffs are super rare. In some games vs some opponents KQ is the nuts here.

Originally Posted by will641

A shove when we brick cannot be bad since it'll aid our image when called, and it's the only way to completely rep our hand. I theorize that doubling should be reserved for the times we're planning on tripling.

planning on trippling every time we double will likely cost a lot of money.

Not necessarily. I found it kinda neat when watching one of Clayton's LP vids how he would see a flop then decide he's gonna be looking to triple it, and quite often iirc.

I think that when evaluating barreling circumstances we should be looking for good boards to fire the third if we fire the second. Sometimes we can't do that, but I'm beginning to believe not as often as we'd initially suspect.

After we have doubled, tripling becomes more important since the pot's larger, we have more invested, and we'll then be able to completely rep our strength and balance our range. For example: I speculate that in a hu game vs two very good players, hero (in your OP) should be tripling after that double 100%. Hero is obviously doing it with any 2p+, but in order to balance range needs to do it with TP as well. Personally I think pf doesn't set us up as well as we could be set up for optimal play, but as played the triple would possibly be the best part.

A lot of this is speculation though since I have little experience behind barreling. Thats mainly because I avoid good regs, and those are the players you wanna be doing that with imo, or at least to learn how to do it. I speculate that barreling well is one of the main factors that separates MSNL and HSNL.

Originally Posted by will641

i tried to make it look like i wanted to bet, but was just scared of the flush draw. im very curious to ppl's thoughts on this.

ill bite: this is retarded. if you are actually able to give him this vibe, he'll be less likely to bluff and like 1000x less likely to thin value bet.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

Originally Posted by will641

i tried to make it look like i wanted to bet, but was just scared of the flush draw. im very curious to ppl's thoughts on this.

ill bite: this is retarded. if you are actually able to give him this vibe, he'll be less likely to bluff and like 1000x less likely to thin value bet.

i worded this poorly. more what i mean is like, i took about 15 seconds deciding whether to shove or to c/c/r. then idk, i was kind of torn between the two, and thought well it kind of looks like im scared to bet, and that was kind of what weighed me more to checking. i admit its probably retarded to base a decision this big on that, but its also retarded to flip a coin and decide.

normally i expect villain to think a shove is a set or flush...so i'd just bet 80. then he'll at least call, and can't check behind.

Originally Posted by benny999

normally i expect villain to think a shove is a set or flush...so i'd just bet 80. then he'll at least call, and can't check behind.

yes

wait what?, dont u have a flush or something