KK, heavy preflop action

Your move?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $197
UTG+1: $330.25
CO: $300.65
Button: $77.40
Hero: $212.95
BB: $171.15

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with K K
UTG raises to $7, UTG+1 raises to $24, CO calls, Button folds, Hero ???

UTG could have AQ, +1 maybe JJ, QQ, AK, CO same range probs. I re-raise here and think about folding to a push.

i make it $75 and call a push

Originally Posted by ChrisTheFish

UTG could have any pair or AT+ KJ+, +1 maybe TT+ AJs+ AQ CO any pair AQ AK. I re-raise here and call a push.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by ChrisTheFish

UTG could have any pair or AT+ KJ+, +1 maybe TT+ AJs+ AQ CO any pair AQ AK. I re-raise here and call a push.

Ok, my bad :P I got the jist of it.

Anybody like a shove here with $58 in the pot?

shoving is fine too

I prefer shove over raise/call push. u might get a thinking player to perceive it as a way to isolate w/ a non-premium pair or AK (a variant of squeeze play). and if u are prepared to call a push from AA then no significant difference. and of course against the non-thinking player you an get more calls from worse hand and not lose value due to a flop that might scare him away from giving you the whole stack.

Depends on what I think of them. Usually call.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Depends on what I think of them. Usually call.

I was waiting for someone to say that, so I can agree with them!! Why raise anyone out of the hand? You have the second nuts and wouldn't mind an UTG overcall.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Originally Posted by Fnord

Depends on what I think of them. Usually call.

I was waiting for someone to say that, so I can agree with them!! Why raise anyone out of the hand? You have the second nuts and wouldn't mind an UTG overcall.

Do we have any outs here? If we push and they fold, we've just taken down a relatively big pot. If we call and play some poker, fine, but then the initial raiser is crazy to fold and we're playing a 4-way pot with an overpair.

Depending on my information on Villain, and how deep both Hero and Villain are, Im going to follow flock with the calling strategy.

Multi-way I would re-raise but heads up I call (Dependant on above), with preferably position, and raise/push against Villains flop bet.

In this instant both Hero and Villain had over one buy in. If my opponent was more likely to call a raise with AK here, then his hand could range from 1010-AA, and i prefer to re-raise and build the pot pre flop. If we are correct about Villain and he pushes, I shut my eyes and call. Playing the hand this way minimises the hands that dominate me to only one. If i call and an awful flop like 10-J-Q etc appears, im behind to several hands and im left being the one making the tough decisions.

Aslong as the above situation wasn't a factor, then I think the line between calling and raising is very fine, and should be based on how comfortable the Hero is with playing flops against a re-raise.

Memeon

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Originally Posted by Fnord

Depends on what I think of them. Usually call.

I was waiting for someone to say that, so I can agree with them!! Why raise anyone out of the hand? You have the second nuts and wouldn't mind an UTG overcall.

i hardly ever make money postflop when i call here

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Originally Posted by Fnord

Depends on what I think of them. Usually call.

I was waiting for someone to say that, so I can agree with them!! Why raise anyone out of the hand? You have the second nuts and wouldn't mind an UTG overcall.

i hardly ever make money postflop when i call here

This suprises me gabe.

I only registered an account today but have been reading the forums for about 2 week now. In that time ive reviewed a few of your hard histories, where you appear to open with a wider range then most, however im unsure on frequency and how your opponents would perceive you?

I suppose that is the main question, but you would think a player opening with a wide range of starting hands, would be able to extract maximum from calling a re-raise with a big hand?

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Originally Posted by Fnord

Depends on what I think of them. Usually call.

I was waiting for someone to say that, so I can agree with them!! Why raise anyone out of the hand? You have the second nuts and wouldn't mind an UTG overcall.

i hardly ever make money postflop when i call here

that is why i like to shove. bad calls are being made more often PF than they are postflop.

Originally Posted by gabe

i hardly ever make money postflop when i call here

Funny, that's the exact same thought that crossed my mind, just before I shoved.

Multi-way, there are so many ways to lose this hand postflop, raising/shoving are the most +EV plays, imo.

They folded.

Originally Posted by Memeon

I suppose that is the main question, but you would think a player opening with a wide range of starting hands, would be able to extract maximum from calling a re-raise with a big hand?

yea but i dont call a reraise out of position preflop with a wide range of hands, so they can usually put me on a big hand pretty easily. people think that since im aggressive preflop that i have AK if i reraise here, buti hardly ever do.

This is why you 4 bet with KK for the reasons Gabe stated, they always put you on AK (even though AK is the bottom of my range, the rest being AA/KK/ sometimes QQ / bluff (never would I bluff 4 bet two players though). So when people are felting JJ here I'm very happy.

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2./$4.
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $157.80
Button: $424.50
SB: $137.50
Hero: $408.40

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is BB with A K
UTG raises to $14, Button raises to $48, SB folds, Hero raises to $160, UTG folds, Button raises all-in $424.5, Hero calls all-in $408.4.
Uncalled bets: $408.4 returned to Hero.

Flop: 2 6 T ($-232.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $865)


Turn: K ($-232.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $865)


River: J ($-232.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $865)


Results:
Final pot: $825.5
Button shows J J
Hero shows A K

Originally Posted by gabe

i make it $75 and call a push