KK, multi-way, OOP and 230BB's deep

Hey guys,

I just had this hand this evening and wanted some feedback on playing this postflop. I definitely didn't like all the callers I got, and the flop raise put me in a tough spot.

Villain has been playing VERY aggressively at the table. He's running at 24/14 and an AF of 8! I had a few hands with him earlier where I was the PF raiser and made continuation bets and he raised me strong on the flop/turn but I didn't have the goods to call him. Others have called him and he has shown some marginal hands when called down.

How do I play this flop? Would villain raise so strong with air/draw with two opp's left to act and an UTG raiser showing strength?

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $233.53
UTG+1: $54.50
CO: $236.25
Button: $150.97
SB: $99
BB: $294.27

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with
Hero raises to $4, UTG+1 folds, CO calls $4, Button calls $4, SB folds, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($16.50, 4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $13.75, CO raises to $45, 2 folds, Hero??

If you weren't so deep I'd probably just push.... not sure in this situation though.... He could def be on a draw though.... or something like AT and trying to protect.

Given your reads it's an easy push. I'd say he has something like AdT, or, at worst, QJd . If he had a better hand (like TT or AA) he'd have reraised preflop. If he had a set, he'd try and extract more from the hand.

Logically, he'd expect you to fold any AK (except AKd), any hand other than TT/99/AA (possibly KK). That's a small portion of your raising range.

At worst, you can think of it this way, don't you want to get all-in with hands like this against a maniac?

Originally Posted by Harry

If you weren't so deep I'd probably just push.... not sure in this situation though.... He could def be on a draw though.... or something like AT and trying to protect.

This was my thought too. If I had a 100bb, I would also probably push.

In this case, the thought of stacking off 2.5 buyins with one pair kind of made me sick.

Originally Posted by yorib

If he had a better hand (like TT or AA) he'd have reraised preflop. If he had a set, he'd try and extract more from the hand.

I don't think I had seen villain re-raise much at all preflop. Most of villain's aggression was post-flop.

It is also important to note that most of villains aggression that I had seen so far against me and others had been in HU pots, and I hadn't seen him do this in multi-way pots.

Maybe I shouldn't be playing so deep if I'm not willing to stack off here?...

Any good lines I should take here?
-check raise flop?
-bet, call flop. Lead non-diamond turn?
-bet, call flop, check/ fold diamond turn?
- bet, fold flop?

probably just fold, or call and play poker on the turn. Pushing is pretty terrible in this spot IMO. Same with 3-betting because then we're committed to call a 4-bet shove anyway when we're either smoked or he's drawing very live.

also,

If he had a set, he'd try and extract more from the hand.

a nice raise on a very drawy flop (at 230bb deep) seems to accomplish just that, no? Especially when people are telling OP to push...

given it's multiway you have to give him some credit. I would call and probably CRAI on blank turns (2-7 non diamond) and give him credit and fold if he doesnt take the free card/slow down on scarier turns.

Thanks for the help so far guys, I appreciate it!

Is checking this flop, to see what kind of action there is behind you in a multi-way pot, a bad play?

ie: check this flop, villain bets $xx, two folds, and now I can smooth call or raise him?

Originally Posted by nutsinho

given it's multiway you have to give him some credit. I would call and probably CRAI on blank turns (2-7 non diamond) and give him credit and fold if he doesnt take the free card/slow down on scarier turns.

give him credit by calling and check/pushing the turn with 230bb eff stacks?? I don't get it. Any line that hands this guy over 2 buyins when he has t2p or a set, well, sucks.

I think folding the flop is too weak against this player, but reraising seems like overkill with stacks this deep. I would probably call and hope for a safe turn card, at which point you can either lead out, or check-raise all-in, depending on how favorable it is (ideally you'd be looking for an offsuit K or a 3), and how much he bets. If a bad card falls on the turn, and he still shows strength, you're probably better off not getting involved.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

I think folding the flop is too weak against this player, but reraising seems like overkill with stacks this deep. I would probably call and hope for a safe turn card, at which point you can either lead out, or check-raise all-in, depending on how favorable it is (ideally you'd be looking for an offsuit K or a 3), and how much he bets. If a bad card falls on the turn, and he still shows strength, you're probably better off not getting involved.

Calling and leadin a 'safe turn' seems to be the best line. However, I'm not sure a K is even a good card for us (gives a straight to JQ). So we want to avoid any K, 8, diamond or A, which seems like a lot of scare cards here!

Also, the way villain plays I am pretty certain that if I donk lead the turn, he will push over or raise in the least. I have seen him do this against other players with and without holdings. He's a HUGE pain on my left!

Given that he is so aggro, I think I could be ahead here. BUT, is it too weak to just "wait for a better spot" when I'm more confident I'm ahead, and know he will still give me action?

So, any 4,8,9,T,J,Q,A or diamond we are done? I think folding may actually be best here with stacks so deep vs. aggressive opponent.

Still, he has AT/A9 as a large part of his range, so there is a good chance he checks it down if a scare card hits.

An offsuit king would give him the second nuts. Being afraid of precisely one hand when sitting on top set in a big pot is silly.

Thanks again to all the replies so far!

If you were wondering.. though its probably clear already.. I folded to his flop raise. I couldn't think of many cards on the turn (other than a king) that might help me felt this hand, so thought it was best to drop it then and there.

Though I've been doubting my decision.

Is it silly to think that I would have had much less of a problem felting this if it was HU with me and him, as opposed to it being multi-way and him making that raise before others to act?

Should there be a big distinction between these two scenario's?

I think no one can really fault you that much for folding there. but givin your reads I can't help but say call the flop and check bomb the turn all in.

i like either a push here or stack-a-donk on turn unless diamond hits = check/call

If you're thinking about playing 2nd highest overpair vs villain w aggro facotor of 8 like a wuss you Ijust cuz you're deep) u will get pwned all day by this guy. All day.

that being said, the multi-way pot read is good. His likely hands are prob 44, 910, 2diamond overs (there are lots of these hands ; many more than sets/2pairs, and deep he'll be raising them all day. He could also have some shit like A10 if he's as aggro as you say).

The only way I can see this being a fold is if the other players suck so much that you have no reason to get involved with the bigstack. But if you fold here to the flop raise you might as well just give this guy money and not play him in pots.

Originally Posted by Genitruc

If you're thinking about playing 2nd highest overpair vs villain w aggro facotor of 8 like a wuss you Ijust cuz you're deep) u will get pwned all day by this guy. All day.

Crap.. you're right Genitruc. I definitely shoulda found a call here. Damn online poker and their damn beepers and timers!

Next time I just gotta get on this guys left, thats for sure.

Oh.. and yes the other players at the table DID suck.. but nonetheless, I shoulda played this hand better. Folding straight up to an AF of 8's raise straight up is grossly weak.

There's always next time...

Originally Posted by Lukie

probably just fold, or call and play poker on the turn. Pushing is pretty terrible in this spot IMO. Same with 3-betting because then we're committed to call a 4-bet shove anyway when we're either smoked or he's drawing very live.

I like a fold for these reasons. I don't like a call because there are no turn cards I love, and plenty of turn cards I hate.

AF or no AF, we're in a sticky situation right now and it's going to get stickier on the turn.

Originally Posted by HalvSame

Originally Posted by Lukie

probably just fold, or call and play poker on the turn. Pushing is pretty terrible in this spot IMO. Same with 3-betting because then we're committed to call a 4-bet shove anyway when we're either smoked or he's drawing very live.

I like a fold for these reasons. I don't like a call because there are no turn cards I love, and plenty of turn cards I hate.

AF or no AF, we're in a sticky situation right now and it's going to get stickier on the turn.

If you're afraid of sticky situations you're gonna get pwned all day playing aggros deepstacked.

Don't wanna be harsh, but are we supposed to wait for top set on a dry board?

Originally Posted by Genitruc

If you're afraid of sticky situations you're gonna get pwned all day playing aggros deepstacked.

Don't wanna be harsh, but are we supposed to wait for top set on a dry board?

Of course not, but looking at the situation what we have is a pair out of position versus a raise on a multiway soaking wet flop. This board is right in set- and two-pair land, plus there are multiple draws available. If we call we're not going to love any turn card, though a king would be nice. If we push he's folding anything that isn't ahead or a coinflip. Pretty much the only thing we're going to get money out of later in the hand are overplayed top pairs and air. With 75BBs behind things change, but I'm not risking 210BBs here.

When I'm deep stacked I want to bet the one in control. That means having position, a great hand on a dangerous board, or a good hand on a dry board. In this hand we have none of the above.

AF = 8 means precisely what? Over how many hands? That he bets or raises 8 times as often as he calls. That doesn't mean he raises every c-bet, it just means he folds OR raises them, never calls.

If you are going to go by AF alone, then you should always re-raise here, because he never calls! Of couse, this is ridiculous - but it's the same error that says you should call just becuse he raises alot.

I'm not saying folding is clearly better - but it's not horrible either.

Originally Posted by HalvSame

Originally Posted by Genitruc

If you're afraid of sticky situations you're gonna get pwned all day playing aggros deepstacked.

Don't wanna be harsh, but are we supposed to wait for top set on a dry board?

Of course not, but looking at the situation what we have is a pair out of position versus a raise on a multiway soaking wet flop. This board is right in set- and two-pair land, plus there are multiple draws available. If we call we're not going to love any turn card, though a king would be nice. If we push he's folding anything that isn't ahead or a coinflip. Pretty much the only thing we're going to get money out of later in the hand are overplayed top pairs and air. With 75BBs behind things change, but I'm not risking 210BBs here.

When I'm deep stacked I want to bet the one in control. That means having position, a great hand on a dangerous board, or a good hand on a dry board. In this hand we have none of the above.

those are all great points

I still have a tough time folding here. AF of 8 is just soooo aggressive, it's unreal.

Something else to consider is that villain might be slowed down as well if the wrong card hits the turn for him (on his 2 pair/set hands) and we can get to showdown cheaply.

I realize that this might be overaggro/spewy thinking on my part, but AF OF 8 FFS. That is someone who is raising postflop like ALL THE TIME... So folding here just makes me wanna puke.

But like I said, your thought process is very good (reasons we wanna get out of this hand).

How about the following situations vs the same villain :

-We raise QQ 2 calls. Board is K-high w 2 low-card spades. We c-bet (prob a mistake) and villain raises. What do we do?

-We raise 99 villain calls (pot is HU). Board is Q-10-6 rainbow. We c-bet villain raises. What do we do?

-We raise AK villain calls. Board is K-J-8 monotone. We don't have any cards of board's suit. We c-bet villain raises. What do we do?

In all of these examples, we have strong hands vs an aggro villain. But calling the flopraise opens us up to playing a big pot OOP with a vulnerable hand.

If we're folding all 3 examples here I think we need to find another seat at the table. The only way we're gonna make money off of villain is hand-over-hand which is worse than playing blackjack.

Strategically, we should obv be checking a lot of flops vs this dood.

OT, but I'm just trying to explain why I think folding this spot (which is one of the stronger flop hands we rate to have) means we're folding way too much.

Originally Posted by Genitruc

If we're folding all 3 examples here I think we need to find another seat at the table.
...
Strategically, we should obv be checking a lot of flops vs this dood.

Yes and yes. I'm too tired right now and have an exam in 8 hours, but I'll come back to this discussion tomorrow.

On a somewhat related note (see zenbits last post) I don't use AF myself, I prefer Afreq.

Originally Posted by Genitruc

Strategically, we should obv be checking a lot of flops vs this dood.

I think this is a very good point. i think in a few of those hands you mentioned, check calling would certainly be warranted against an aggro villain who has been betting weak hands. Check calling definitely controls the pot at least.

In this hand in question, I think there is something that can be said for checking this flop as well and if it was HU I may have done so. But in this multiway pot, the last thing I wanted to do was give 3 players a free card!

If there weren't two other very weak players at this table, I would have DEFINITELY left the table. And a seat change would have been helpful!

I always find that I learn the most when a few solid FTRers disagree in difficult spots and give their reasoning behind it, so keep it up HalfSane, Genitruc and Zenbitz!