KK squeezed deep facing huge aggression

been a while. anyway i suppose this is interesting

villain isnt a reg, was acting pretty crazy quite a lot but had NEVER done a minraise like this against anyone. i was the tighest player at the table.

he was running about 44/30 with AF 5, doesnt fold to 3bets really but was 4 betting a fair bit although sample was small.

this is a table where you can buy in for 300bb which I did because this guy was here. i hadn't won a decent hand against him but he'd bet me off a couple hands i couldn't call with.

calling turn doesnt make too much sense since it leaves aroudn 220 in a 760 pot so its fold or shove.

calling ANY pair pre is well in his range, so is TJ, spades, whatever I guess since he was loose.

thoughts?

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Tiltmanager ($204)
CO NICORSINOU ($353)
BTN kilofion ($145.42)
SB zaz1980 ($630.90)
BB Hero ($602)

Pre-Flop: ($3, 5 players) Hero is BB
2 folds, kilofion raises to $7, zaz1980 calls $6, Hero raises to $35, kilofion folds, zaz1980 calls $28

Flop: ($77, 2 players)
zaz1980 checks, Hero bets $45, zaz1980 raises to $90, Hero calls $45

Turn: ($257, 2 players)
zaz1980 bets $257

Final Pot: $514

i think you have to get it in here. He's not a good player and with aggro donkeys minraises like this can be really full of crap. He may even be value betting worse.

I'm getting it in as well. I'd probably 3 bet the flop smallish as played I'd jam over the turn bet. He's got worse for value here along with a bunch of other crap imo.

i suppose my issue was two fold, one this line had not been seen yet at the table and i likely gave him too much credit for reading MY hand as being very strong since it had been so tight and generally passive... the other thought was i very rarely play 300bb deep and if i lost an all in i would start playing very poorly at all my other tables due to mini lifetilt.

to make it more interesting, what is the bottom of MY range you would shove this turn with ? AJ ?

Originally Posted by bspahn

i very rarely play 300bb deep and if i lost an all in i would start playing very poorly at all my other tables due to mini lifetilt.

then dont buy in 300bb deep??

when a potentially fishy guy has 300bb ill buy in for 300bb and play good implied odds hands to stack em when i can hit a huge hand and otherwise generally not trying to do too much with just one pair hands.

in this case because he was 4betting like 50% of the time (smallish sample) i would have been happy to get in preflop but that didnt work out too well

If villain is weak-passive, I'd buy in for as much as he has any time. Against someone who gets it in with a fairly wide range presumably, I'd feel much more comfortable with 100-200bb stacks.

Has he just never minraised anyone, or has he never raised and taken initiative post-flop?
tbh I don't see how the turn is a shove unless you have seen him try to get it in (betting) 200bb+ deep with one pair.

as much as i'd love to get this in, people just aren't getting 300bb's in with top pair.

I highly doubt he's c/min raising JT on the flop, so that can be heavily discounted. He would have certainly 3bet JJ pre the way he was playing, so that can be discounted.

He reps only 333, 444, and its possible he only shows up with those hands here this deep, but given your description he can probably show up with other stuff.

What was the timing on his flop action, and his turn bet?

Your feel has a big part to do with this decision imo, sometimes you just feel based on the flow that you're either good here or not. It's tough to comment only see the HH.

here's what ill do, ill look up HEM and see what OTHER hands i can find on him from that session so we can make a more informed decision on which hands he played in which way previous to this.

the minraise took a few seconds, the turn was basically insta pot.

Originally Posted by bspahn

i was the tighest player at the table.

I would fold the turn and not think about it too much.

here are a few hands on this villain.

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Antonius8888 ($147)
UTG+1 kilofion ($211.42)
CO zaz1980 ($201.71)
BTN Hero ($623.90)
SB dimitralesas ($85.58)
BB NICORSINOU ($228)

Pre-Flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is BTN
2 folds, zaz1980 raises to $7, Hero folds, dimitralesas calls $6, NICORSINOU raises to $28, zaz1980 raises to $91, dimitralesas calls $78.58, NICORSINOU goes all-in $228, zaz1980 calls $110.71

Flop: ($515.29, 3 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($515.29, 3 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($515.29, 3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $515.29
NICORSINOU shows

zaz1980 shows

dimitralesas shows


zaz1980 wins $486 (net +$284.29)

NICORSINOU collects $26.29 (net -$201.71)
dimitralesas lost $85.58
----------------------------------
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG CMC87 ($594)
UTG+1 zaz1980 ($801.20)
CO Hero ($600)
BTN Tiltmanager ($219.75)
SB NICORSINOU ($437)
BB Fabian_pl ($600)

Pre-Flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is CO
CMC87 raises to $7, zaz1980 calls $7, Hero folds, 3 folds

Flop: ($17, 2 players)
CMC87 checks, zaz1980 bets $12, CMC87 calls $12

Turn: ($41, 2 players)
CMC87 checks, zaz1980 bets $41, CMC87 calls $41

River: ($123, 2 players)
CMC87 checks, zaz1980 bets $123, CMC87 calls $123

Final Pot: $369
CMC87 shows

zaz1980 shows


zaz1980 wins $366 (net +$183)

CMC87 lost $183

------------------------
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Obiw4n ($246.60)
UTG+1 @@@boss@@@ ($100.53)
CO zaz1980 ($246)
BTN Hero ($199)
SB 2cheap ($29)
BB The747 ($200)

Pre-Flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is BTN
2 folds, zaz1980 raises to $7, Hero folds, 1 fold, The747 raises to $22, zaz1980 calls $15

Flop: ($45, 2 players)
The747 bets $28, zaz1980 calls $28

Turn: ($101, 2 players)
The747 checks, zaz1980 bets $52, The747 calls $52

River: ($205, 2 players)
The747 checks, zaz1980 bets $144, The747 folds

Final Pot: $349
-----------------------------
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG zaz1980 ($984.20)
UTG+1 Hero ($600)
CO Tiltmanager ($219.75)
BTN NICORSINOU ($436)
SB Fabian_pl ($598)
BB CMC87 ($411)

Pre-Flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1
zaz1980 raises to $7, Hero folds, 3 folds, CMC87 calls $5

Flop: ($15, 2 players)
CMC87 checks, zaz1980 bets $10, CMC87 raises to $20, zaz1980 calls $10

Turn: ($55, 2 players)
CMC87 bets $28, zaz1980 calls $28

River: ($111, 2 players)
CMC87 bets $44, zaz1980 raises to $243, CMC87 folds

Final Pot: $398
---------------------------
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG kilofion ($102.71)
UTG+1 zaz1980 ($155.80)
CO Hero ($626.90)
BTN dimitralesas ($153)
SB Manu.Mont ($75.80)
BB Antonius8888 ($164)

Pre-Flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is CO
1 fold, zaz1980 raises to $7, Hero folds, dimitralesas calls $7, Manu.Mont calls $6, 1 fold

Flop: ($23, 3 players)
Manu.Mont checks, zaz1980 bets $10, dimitralesas folds, Manu.Mont goes all-in $68.80, zaz1980 goes all-in $148.80

Turn: ($240.60, 2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($240.60, 2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $240.60
Manu.Mont shows

zaz1980 shows


zaz1980 wins $237.60 (net +$81.80)

Manu.Mont lost $75.80
dimitralesas lost $7
-------------------
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG 2cheap ($28)
CO The747 ($202)
BTN @@@boss@@@ ($100.53)
SB zaz1980 ($344)
BB Hero ($200)

Pre-Flop: ($3, 5 players) Hero is BB
1 fold, The747 raises to $7, 1 fold, zaz1980 calls $6, Hero folds

Flop: ($16, 2 players)
zaz1980 checks, The747 bets $11, zaz1980 calls $11

Turn: ($38, 2 players)
zaz1980 checks, The747 bets $21, zaz1980 raises to $42, The747 calls $21

River: ($122, 2 players)
zaz1980 bets $122, The747 folds

Final Pot: $244
--------------------------
THEN FINALLY TODAY i get a bit of mini-redemption

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG 2cheap ($25)
CO The747 ($197)
BTN @@@boss@@@ ($103.53)
SB zaz1980 ($405)
BB Hero ($203)

Pre-Flop: ($3, 5 players) Hero is BB
1 fold, The747 raises to $7, 1 fold, zaz1980 calls $6, Hero calls $5

Flop: ($21, 3 players)
zaz1980 checks, Hero checks, The747 checks

Turn: ($21, 3 players)
zaz1980 bets $14, Hero calls $14, The747 folds

River: ($49, 2 players)
zaz1980 bets $49, Hero calls $49

Final Pot: $147
zaz1980 shows

Hero shows


Hero wins $145 (net +$75)

zaz1980 lost $70
The747 lost $7

Wow ok after seeing those hands I'm definitely shipping.

He's jammed a few times on people, and he c/min raised a turn once and bet pot again right after. The only time we see what he's doing when he bets pot is the last hand with air.

jamfesttt

Those hands don't change my opinion at all.

You missed value in that last hand imo. As obvious as it looks vs him I'd just raise turn and bet river. He's never gonna fold a queen or clubs on turn.

Originally Posted by griffey24

The only time we see what he's doing when he bets pot is the last hand with air.

Check again. He bets pot for value twice with A9s!

Still not shipping.

yea i agree now to just ship it in.
from the play today where he was up yet again quite a bit at the table he's just betting large enough times that he cant have a huge hand every time.

maybe i was beat who knows but if we played this hand 1000x i'd prob make money by shipping it on the turn.

thanks guys

A I

Griffey, meeloche and nutsinho all forgot long time ago what it's like to play with a solid image. We'd all ship if it was us sitting there, but that's a different story alltogether. We're not "the tightest player at the table".

arguably. i just cant see someone potting a set on that board w. those stacks

It's arguable that being the tightest player at the table makes any difference to opp, or even makes this more of a call.

I go all in as well.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

It's arguable that being the tightest player at the table makes any difference to opp, or even makes this more of a call.

Yaah this is kind of my line of reasoning.

P4's - don't you think its conceivable that this type of player views us as the tightest player at the table, and is MORE likely to try bluffing us here since we very likely only have one pair on this board and given our tightness somewhat afraid to stack off this deep.

This is why I was asking timing info from OP, to see if villain is trying to get us to fold or not. Only OP will know that kind of thing.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

arguably. i just cant see someone potting a set on that board w. those stacks

Yeah, but a flushdraw doesn't quite fit here either. Could be JT more than a set considering high AF. Total spew is what it looks like, but so did his three huge barrels with A9s on AA522 board.

Originally Posted by griffey24

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

It's arguable that being the tightest player at the table makes any difference to opp, or even makes this more of a call.

Yaah this is kind of my line of reasoning.

P4's - don't you think its conceivable that this type of player views us as the tightest player at the table, and is MORE likely to try bluffing us here since we very likely only have one pair on this board and given our tightness somewhat afraid to stack off this deep.

So you are saying that he thinks we will fold because he knows that we know that he knows that we have an overpair? I guess it might be possible, but I wouldn't bet my 300BB stack on it for several reasons:

1. It should be obvious to even a weaker player that we have at least an overpair after we call the flop. Does this aggro maniac really expect us to fold an overpair against HIM?

2. c/minraise flop doesn't seem like a draw either. If we think this is total spew, then why would he target Hero in this spot, with no metagame going on? Is he really leveling us into thinking that we should fold our overpair against his maniac style, just because we have no reason to expect that he would go crazy against a solid player?

3. Villain seems to use pot sized bets in a variety of situations. He has even done it for value in a spot where very few players would bet full pot against a very weak range.

4. Villain doesn't seem to be totally clueless since he is aggressive both preflop and postflop. He also seems capable of utilizing his image for extraction with good hands.

5. If villain does in fact have complete air/spew, then he won't even give us his last 220 if we shove the turn.

I'm fully aware that the arguments for stacking off are strong here as well. I just don't like the style of poker where we make a stand by playing a huge pot with a very marginal hand, just because we can't put a virtually unknown villain on a strong hand.

I don't mind snapping off some bluffs, but doing a calculated 300BB thin stack off is another thing entirely. It's just not my cup of tea.