KT vs tag running weird line.

Guys a standard two plus two - like tag. 25/18 or something over a very small sample. We've never played a big pot that i can remember, and I don't know how he's playign today, the hands i have on him are from a long time ago.

POKERSTARS GAME #8740018979: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2007/03/04 - 19:23:13 (ET)
Table 'Meliboea II' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: mahmoud17 ($599 in chips)
Seat 2: Drake1588 ($357 in chips)
Seat 3: Renton555 ($200 in chips)
Seat 5: Shpanko69 ($277 in chips)
Seat 6: annorax ($158.85 in chips)
Shpanko69: posts small blind $1
annorax: posts big blind $2

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [Tc Kd]

mahmoud17: raises $2 to $4
Drake1588: folds
Renton555: calls $4
schickli joins the table at seat #4
Shpanko69: calls $3
annorax: calls $2

*** FLOP *** [7s 5c Ts]

Shpanko69: checks
annorax: bets $6
mahmoud17: calls $6
Renton555: raises $18 to $24
Shpanko69: calls $24
annorax: folds
mahmoud17: folds

*** TURN *** [7s 5c Ts] [Qd]

Shpanko69: checks
Renton555: checks

*** RIVER *** [7s 5c Ts Qd] [7c]

Shpanko69: bets $69
Renton555:

Given that he called in the SB I w0uld put him on 67s,78s or more likely 75s. That's a hand I would play OOP against an EP raiser and a button caller. Not quite sure if QT is a hand a common TAG would cold call with OOP.

I think if you want to fold a blankish river to a <PSB after checking behind on the turn, you'd probably do better to bet the turn, since you can still possibly extract value from hands like JT, T9, 88, 99, 89, and flush draws without inviting them to steal the pot from you on the river.

As played, I'd probably cry and call.

hahaha

am i the only one that doesnt like the coldcall from MP with KT0..

Originally Posted by MiJ

am i the only one that doesnt like the coldcall from MP with KT0..

raiser is like 60/50 and im trying to play every pot i can with him

One of those situations where I don't really think it matters what you do.

You'll see busted spades almost as much as you'll see 7-x here imo.

FWIW I have 7x in this spot like always.

Originally Posted by Genitruc

FWIW I have 7x in this spot like always.

You'd call the flop raise OOP with 2nd pair?

yup I'd call it expecting to get paid off nicely when I hit one of my 5 likely outs

what range of hands could he possibly be on that i don't beat?

Originally Posted by Renton

what range of hands could he possibly be on that i don't beat?

not much

you're only really worried about 7x and Q10

Originally Posted by Genitruc

yup I'd call it expecting to get paid off nicely when I hit one of my 5 likely outs

On a two flush board when the flop raiser cold-called preflop and is repping a set or a big draw?

Besides, what hand that Hero holds is supposed to be willing to call big bets on the later streets? Hands like JJ+ is out because we know UTG is loose and Hero would prefer to isolate/value raise with hands like that. Based on Hero's preflop action, his range of hands that is likely to call/make big bets on the later streets when another 7 hits are often ahead of three sevens, don't you think?

Originally Posted by Renton

what range of hands could he possibly be on that i don't beat?

QsJs, KsQs maybe. I'd expect AsQs (and KsQs sometimes) to reraise preflop given your reads.

disclaimer : I'm defending a fishy play... But here goes :

The draw heaviness of the flop makes it likely that I also have the best made hand at the moment (esp since the non-spade card is a 5 ; if it were an A/K/Q it'd be much more likely that my 7 is behind).

So villain's likely range is (in order I'd guess at based on available cards and preflop action) :

-5sXs (x being likely A/K)

-10-X (protecting)

-555

-4s6s or 4x6y

-77 unlikely since I hold a 7 and 1010 unlikely since it usually raises preflop

I instinctively responded that I'd call with 7x here without thinking much. Now that I've actually thought it out it's not that fishy at all.

When a spade falls I can fold easily.

When I hit my 2 pair or my 7 I can expect hero to pay me off with 10x since my hand looks like busted spades.

Also, I can think hard about calling a bullet if, say, the turn checks through, the river's a blank and the flush misses.

There's a flop bet, a call, and a raise, and you think 7x is likely the best hand?

If you knew it would be HU after you called the flop raise, OK, but there are still two players left to act after you call the flop raise. Five (or more likely 4) outs aren't really enough to continue, IMO, especially when you can't be sure if two pair (2-3 of your outs) will be good.

More importantly, you are OOP, so you can't guarantee that the money will go in on the turn and river even if you hit your hand. Plus, there are scare cards that can hit on the turn/river that will slow you down and possibly slow your opponent down as well.

If you are calling with a 7 and only a draw to two pair/trips in this spot, I think that's a leak.

yeah u r right

I think I was ignoring the initial donk-raiser who had c-bet.

Also, doing this systematically OOP would be terrible. In actual play I'd tend to do this in position HU.

My initial statement that "I'd call here w 7-x" wasn't really thought out to consider position.

If, however, the pot were HU -especially if we were in position (or if we had called then LP had raised causing PF raiser to fold) the long-winded thing I wrote above would apply.

Qx would never make that absurd river bet

This looks so bluffy I guess I feel like I have to call. But if he does have a hand i'd say your best bet that he was being fishy and flat called bottom set intending to c/r the turn.

so essentially its 75 or air, making it a clear call?

I've beeen having this problem a lot since starting to check turns to control pots with TPTK hands. This is a bluff as much as a nut hand and it's always a guess for me. These guys don't see the turn check as a control move as much as weekness and hammer the turn thinking you'll weak tight the river and fold up. Even when I try check raising more often, it seems to go unnoticed and they still see the check as weak.

His line looks like 55 to me...

Originally Posted by Phantaroth

His line looks like 55 to me...

I think this more than 75 IMO.

As played I fold river.

Also against a guy as bad as you say he is I probably raise to isolate and watch him stack off with mid pair. Sauce

How is this not a set? He CC the raise with 2 to act behind him (obv, not wanting to shutout any potential callers), He misses the C/R on the turn, and makes a PSB on the river hoping to get paid as it doesn't make sense if you take his turn check as weak.

I fold the river.

Originally Posted by Thee One

How is this not a set? He CC the raise with 2 to act behind him (obv, not wanting to shutout any potential callers), He misses the C/R on the turn, and makes a PSB on the river hoping to get paid as it doesn't make sense if you take his turn check as weak.

my thoughts exactly

Not raising this flop w 555 multi-way seems particularly bad to me and unlikely if this guy is a "standard 2p2 tagg"

Maybe I just don't slowplay enough. It's just that even if you raise the flop,the donks will call with their draws anyways, and this is a super drawy board...