Liked it, then didn't.

Villain is 20/14/8 over 125 hands, and hasn't shown a great tendency to float. I'm running a card dead 16/12. Do we like?

GAME #1175011183: Texas Hold'em NL $0.25/$0.50 2008-09-20 18:12:23
Table Leonora
Seat 1: BB ($50.50 in chips)
Seat 3: UTG ($49.40 in chips)
Seat 5: UTG+1 ($64.23 in chips)
Seat 6: Kagey22 ($60.82 in chips)
Seat 8: Villain ($52.00 in chips) DEALER
Seat 10: SB ($150.69 in chips)
SB: Post SB $0.25
BB: Post BB $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to kagey22 [Ac 8d]
UTG: Fold
UTG+1: Fold
kagey22: Raise (NF) $2.00
Button: Call $2.00
SB: Fold
BB: Fold
*** FLOP *** [8h Qd 5s]
kagey22: Bet $3.00
Button: Raise (NF) $8.00
kagey22: Raise (NF) $18.00

It's a B/F flop for me unless he plays back a ton.

I don't understand what our 3bet is trying to do on the flop? I'd only do that for value and I can't seem to see how we get value here.

This is fine.

Originally Posted by Fnord

This is fine.

Are you liking this because he's so aggro that he'll see a weak ass bet and not want to quit the hand and bluff shove us a lot?

Dry board he may know enough to play back at you on and you have a piece that may improve to the best hand if called.

However, if he's really really good he knows your line is bullshit too.

Hands like this are all about frequency and game flow. If you never contested a raise on a dry board you're making life too easy for your opponents.

Another fun play is to check the flop and let the hand develop from there....

yeah, I was wondering about checking this flop. My problem with this hand is I can't work out since most of his range is bluffs my pair of eights has any value.

For what it's worth, if you check the flop you're going to get bet into by nearly 100% of his range for most TAggs, unless he's just a passive twit who plays by the book pre-flop or you've trained him to stop blindly stabbing at you.

Raise-flop, check/raise the flop is such a fun line...

I kind of like the line but the tricky one in me says c/raise this flop because villain will almost certainly bet but would need a very strong hand to continue.

Originally Posted by Fnord

For what it's worth, if you check the flop you're going to get bet into by nearly 100% of his range for most TAggs, unless he's just a passive twit who plays by the book pre-flop or you've trained him to stop blindly stabbing at you.

Raise-flop, check/raise the flop is such a fun line...

Originally Posted by silu73

I kind of like the line but the tricky one in me says c/raise this flop because villain will almost certainly bet but would need a very strong hand to continue.

Isn't c/r-ing a lot better with far more polarized range, instead of using 2nd pair-top kicker?
If you don't like betting out, c/c flop and c/c most turns seems like a far better line to me.

Betting this flop CO vs BTN is still good and standard imo and work from there like Fnord said earlier. For some reason tags like to raise the flop COvsBTN or SBvsBB a lot, while they're usually only repping a very thin range. They're just testing your balls.

wow this line would be pretty sick if it is with the intention of calling a shove. assuming its not, its pretty awful. if you think he is bluffing, your hand is plenty good enough to call and play a turn.

if you think a checkraise (folding to further action) could be good, please explain how it could be more effective than both a 'check-call, c/f' and a 'bet/call, c/f' line. I'm not saying i think it is good or bad but it defies traditional theory so please expound on why this is not merely clicking random buttons because it is fun.

One of the main problems I have with this hand is defining his hand range. The board is super dry and really a lot of players are going to flat call the flop C-bet with the top of their range, looking to raise or bet the turn. In game time I simply thought most of his range folds to a reraise because I have more nut hands in my range,including some possibly better hands that he's turning into a bluff. However on further thought as Fnord mentioned, my line doesn't make sense either if since if I think he's bluffing I'd flat call. This is not a standard line I'd take in this situation. FWIW Villain insta-pushed all-in. I thought a bit and folded. I really wish I'd called this.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

if you think a checkraise (folding to further action) could be good.

The general idea is that may players are betting almost all of their range when checked to with position and lots of money behind after flatting a PFR. The c/r gets them to put in that light money then re-takes initiative in the hand. It also gives our opponent cause for checking behind when checked to and less incentive to float because he no longer can take for granted that check = weak.

why do you want to retake initiative with middle pair out of position? he can call our checkraise with a lot of hands and our best option still seems to be to c/f after checkraising the flop.

its great that he's betting his whole range when checked to, this means we can check-call...

Originally Posted by nutsinho

this means we can check-call...

...give free cards and play guessing games about his two barrel range.

poker is all about playing guessing games. getting good at guessing games is how we maximize EV, not by making the game simpler by playing raise or fold poker.

if you're gonna continue I prefer call flop, call turn, fold riv