line check

Villain is lagtard name hotmark777, i think he sucks...
jk, hotmark is a 5000 nl reg, or at least former one, he may be on a downswing or something, but none the less its safe to say he can probably think of hands deep and is capable of bluffs. his stats are 27/22/10 over 100 hands.
I think the turn is a but the river is to induce a bluff. My image is nit.

PokerStars Game #10398568417: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2007/06/12 - 12:02:43 (ET)
Table 'Hektor II' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: advertizer10 ($152.75 in chips)
Seat 2: nick2003 ($432.45 in chips)
Seat 3: redgrape ($198.20 in chips)
Seat 4: hotmark777 ($214.40 in chips)
Seat 5: cheil36 ($237.15 in chips)
Seat 6: Colombo218 ($200 in chips)
cheil36: posts small blind $1
Colombo218: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [Th 8h]
advertizer10: calls $2
nick2003: calls $2
redgrape: raises $10 to $12
hotmark777: calls $12
cheil36: folds
Colombo218: folds
advertizer10: folds
nick2003: folds
*** FLOP *** [7c 2d 6h]
redgrape: bets $22
hotmark777: calls $22
*** TURN *** [7c 2d 6h] [8c]
redgrape: checks
hotmark777: checks
*** RIVER *** [7c 2d 6h 8c] [Kc]
redgrape: bets $32
hotmark777: raises $148.40 to $180.40 and is all-in
redgrape: calls $132.20 and is all-in

capable of bluffs doesn't make it any more likely. i don't like the preflop raise. i don't like the river bet. definitely do not like the river call. i just can't see what hands you beat that would play like that.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

i don't like the preflop raise.

Ummm... preflop is fine and, dare i say, standard?

I'm guessing if hotmark is a 5k NL guy he's probably blowing off steam or experimenting, which just makes it more likely that he'd try something.

That being said, your line actually looks pretty strong so i'm not sure why you think it'll induce a bluff. Then again, i don't know what he got to the river with that's raising, besides a runner flush. But like i said, you're line looks strongish i think so don't call the river. In fact, i don't see why you're betting the river.

wow, great analysis max, that really sums it up. At the time i thought i was repping air/a pair of kings and only that, but i think he could put me on much stronger than that.

But what do you guys think he possibly has? There's no value in playing a really strong hand this way on previous streets, so was he playing something like K6s/K7s?

Originally Posted by Massimo

Ummm... preflop is fine and, dare i say, standard?

against 2 limpers, you turning this hand from a drawing hand into a bluffing hand in which you hope to take it down preflop. you might as well do it with ATC.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

so was he playing something like K6s/K7s?

easily possible, or like i said a runnered flush.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Originally Posted by Massimo

Ummm... preflop is fine and, dare i say, standard?

against 2 limpers, you turning this hand from a drawing hand into a bluffing hand in which you hope to take it down preflop. you might as well do it with ATC.

You should every now and then...

In position the preflop raise is good. Unlucky you got called by someone behind you. The flop is an easy float, so villain call doesn't say that much. I'd expect him to bet after you checked though, but maybe I get leveled here already. I see where you come from for calling his river all-in, and you very well be right. I usually expect to see some weird 2 pair, Kxs, runner flush or mispayed AK though.

pf is OK, but not standard, especially if you are nitty.
That's is an odd pre-flop cold call from a slumming good player. My first guess is that he thinks everyone at $200NL is pathetic and he can totally outplay your weak ass with position.

So, I can't really narrow his range to anything except "playable" (which doesn't really include crap like K6).

He could make this play with like 9Ts. He has a gutshot and maybe a flush redraw - but when his turn card hits, and you check, he puts you on AK and thinks you'll fold. When you bet the river - he thinks that you spiked an over and will get value for his shove.

It doesn't seem real likely that he backdoored a flush (other than 9T) because I think he would certainly semi-bluff the turn if he thought you had overs. If he thought you were a donk slowplaying/trapping/scared playing AA/KK I guess he might check a flush draw, but I doubt it.

So then it just comes down to bluffing frequency. I think if you wanted to induce, check/call would have been better. I guess if he really thinks he's the shiite and you are a standard 1/2 tag then he's bluffing a fair amount.

I think preflop is insanely standard. I don't see how limpers make this a bad idea. When I see people limping, unless I have reason to think otherwise, I consider that dead money.

I like Massimo's analysis.

Originally Posted by Galapogos

I think preflop is insanely standard. I don't see how limpers make this a bad idea. When I see people limping, unless I have reason to think otherwise, I consider that dead money.

according to pokerstove, T8s is in the top 24% hands. if this is "standard," your VPIP would need to be hovering around 36%...unless you're playing 24/24. your PFR might even be higher because you'd open up even more to steal blinds when the opportunity arrives.

I don't think pokerstove factors in position.

id push the turn but i push alot of stuff there

also river bet call sucks, but the bet is good

btw i was planning a turn c/r at the time, how bad is that? it seems like turn bet is wayyyyy better, wondering what you guys think.

Originally Posted by Galapogos

I don't think pokerstove factors in position.

does it matter? 24% is a large percentage no matter what position you're at. maybe i'm misunderstanding you guys. when i say "standard" i mean that even if i raise i don't mind them calling, because my hand has enough equity that i make money through their calls. i don't think T8s has such properties.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Originally Posted by Galapogos

I don't think pokerstove factors in position.

does it matter? 24% is a large percentage no matter what position you're at. maybe i'm misunderstanding you guys. when i say "standard" i mean that even if i raise i don't mind them calling, because my hand has enough equity that i make money through their calls. i don't think T8s has such properties.

I think thats pretty nitty. I'll raise a bunch of complete crap with a lot of limpers. As Fnord always says limpers + raise in pos = $$$$$

ugh ur call on river is TERRIBLE

rest of hand is ok tho checking behind flop cant be all that bad

I think we are all confused by what "standard" means.

To me, standard means that ~75% of the time or more, you raise 2 limpers with T8s in the CO.

My first thought is that it isn't standard... but we are not folding. So I guess if you never limp (even after limpers) PF, then it's standard. I would probably raise 25% call 65% fold 10% or something. Although I don't really randomize with second hands or anything.

As for not raising T8s being "nitty" - sure you will raise any 2 here SOMETIMES. Not EVERYTIME. Standard = (Almost) Everytime!

In anycase, I don't think PF is bad. I did think that I explained how he could have a straight here as a known thinking player slumming in 200NL...

ok- let me rephrase this- against ISF if hotmark isnt tilting he has AK beat here just about always

Originally Posted by sauce123

ok- let me rephrase this- against ISF if hotmark isnt tilting he has AK beat here just about always

Just to clarify something, this is what i dont get: Is it not obvious that hotmark has one specific hand at least 50%+ of the time on the river?(I know what that hand is in my mind but i wont say it yet).
I really dont expect him to show up here with like K6s or K7s, that would just be a horrible preflop i call i would think and he hasnt been out of line at all.
I think AK here is no different than T8 as far as hand strength to his shove.

54, 87, set

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I think thats pretty nitty. I'll raise a bunch of complete crap with a lot of limpers. As Fnord always says limpers + raise in pos = $$$$$

FWIW, i call preflop about 95% of the time. the other 5% i'll raise if i know both limpers are like...0.25 post flop aggression or something.

Originally Posted by sauce123

54, 87, set

why would he get tricky here u think he respects my game?

Originally Posted by sauce123

54, 87, set

why would he get tricky here u think he respects my game? Let me rephrase, we've played 100 hands, i doubt he's doing anything special to manipulate my play or exploit it.

I don't know how he plays at these limits but from what I've seen of him higher he is very capable of showing up with air here.

But lots of those guys "don't respect" ppl at lowstakes so they don't make bluffs when they play lower. I'd probably fold and expect him to show up with a flush here.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Originally Posted by Galapogos

I think preflop is insanely standard. I don't see how limpers make this a bad idea. When I see people limping, unless I have reason to think otherwise, I consider that dead money.

according to pokerstove, T8s is in the top 24% hands. if this is "standard," your VPIP would need to be hovering around 36%...unless you're playing 24/24. your PFR might even be higher because you'd open up even more to steal blinds when the opportunity arrives.

Sometimes in No-limit Hold'em, we vary our play.

Originally Posted by Ravageur

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Originally Posted by Galapogos

I think preflop is insanely standard. I don't see how limpers make this a bad idea. When I see people limping, unless I have reason to think otherwise, I consider that dead money.

according to pokerstove, T8s is in the top 24% hands. if this is "standard," your VPIP would need to be hovering around 36%...unless you're playing 24/24. your PFR might even be higher because you'd open up even more to steal blinds when the opportunity arrives.

Sometimes in No-limit Hold'em, we vary our play.

Alright E-Dawg.

Hyper, your point about raising simply because our hand is top 24% is well-taken. To systematically raise limpers with any top 1/4 hole-cards would be suicidal.

That being said, T8s is a great hand to play in a multi-way pot, both for suitedness, but also since hitting a straight will usually connect with other ppl's 2 pair/set monsters. So in this spot we'll usually be able to win a big one/lose a small one, esp since we're in position.

The other thing to consider is that we want an aggressive table image so we get paid off on our monsters. Doing this with A-x or a small pair would be a little spewier imo but, if we can mix up our "limp-punishing" by doing it with a hand like this that plays well vs multiple villains, we should make it harder for passive-limping nits to fold their 1-pair hands when we have QQ+ after the action goes the same way.

Originally Posted by Genitruc

I don't know how he plays at these limits but from what I've seen of him higher he is very capable of showing up with air here.

But lots of those guys "don't respect" ppl at lowstakes so they don't make bluffs when they play lower. I'd probably fold and expect him to show up with a flush here.

this is exactly it. hes isnt bluffing here unless it is specifically tilt and if isf hasnt seen him visibly tilting lately then he has AK beat. he also probably doesnt give isf credit for even close to an optimal 3betting range

I got 300 hands in against him. I seen him bluff shove the river a few times(I got him doing this with As2s v my 77 board:3s 7d Kh 3h 5c). He didn't have any respect for anyone at any table I seen him at, he called all 3bets and usually pushed flop or turn. I seen him push every draw he had so I think no flush here. I think he has 33/44/55 or some other type of 1 pair/air holding. The best hand I think he may have is something like KQ. Based on what I seen of him today I think your river call is +ev...

turn c/r sucks badddddddddd

results for those who like them, he had 64s for a backdoor flush.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

results for those who like them, he had 64s for a backdoor flush.

I wonder why he didn't semi-bluff the turn? What was the 1 hand YOU thought he had?

betting the turn would've been pretty bad by him IMO

i diddnt read all this so sorry if im reiterating.

Preflop=standerd

B/f the turn

As played. fold to river raise, you beat nothing

Originally Posted by zenbitz

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

results for those who like them, he had 64s for a backdoor flush.

I wonder why he didn't semi-bluff the turn? What was the 1 hand YOU thought he had?

I thought he had a backdoor flush, that was the only hand where i wouldnt expect him to play it any differently.

He didn't bet the turn because he has a strong draw that he doesnt want to have blown out by a check/bomb and his hand really isnt vunerbale.

what are you c/r this turn with? About the only thing he is a big dog to are sets, top 2, and made straights.

I guess if you call on the river anyway...