Massimo theorem

Applies to 1/2-5/10 NL:

You play more than 15 hands at one table without 3-betting, if you get 4-bet by a regular when you 3-bet for the first time he is always bluffing or semibluffing (4-betting a weak hand he plans to stack off with).

examples:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (3 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($252.75)
Button ($1339.90)
Hero ($597)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6, 7.
Button raises to $21, Hero raises to $75, 1 fold, Button raises to $189, Hero raises to $672 (All-In), Button folds.

Final Pot: $384

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($1376.75)
BB ($634)
UTG ($707.80)
MP ($723.45)
CO ($625.95)
Button ($418)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T, A.
2 folds, CO raises to $21, 1 fold, Hero raises to $72, 1 fold, CO raises to $198, Hero raises to $1376.75, CO calls $427.95 (All-In).

Flop: ($1257.90) 7, 4, 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($1257.90) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($1257.90) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $1257.90

Results in white below:
Hero has Ts Ac (one pair, sevens).
CO has 9d 9h (two pair, nines and sevens).
Outcome: CO wins $1257.90.

why does 15 hands apply?

idk it was just arbitrary, basically the amount of hands it takes before it becomes clear you're not a really light 3-bettor.

doesnt that make them less likely to 4bet light? i guess if they think that though you perceived range would have less garbage hands you could be doing this with though.

Uuh... yeah why 4bet light a guy that 'never' 3bets?

Or are you just saying rep aces all the way down preflop and hope they read that and fold?

I think this applies to very few villains at 200nl. You have to be sure they are on the same level as you for this to be profitable and honestly most villains at 200nl are just clicking buttons .

I tried this out the other day and ended up sucking out on kings.

The theory being that if they had AA or KK they'd usually just call your 3-bet to trap, therefore their range is weighted to hands that'll fold or that you're not in that bad of shape against?

this is the type of info u arent supposed to give away dude. : [

its one thing to give advice about optimal play and everything, but u r just telling people how we are getting our psychological edge vs them.

i think its better to explain the concept and why ... what you
re doing is just telling people how were beating them and putting your own name on it. ......

this isn't actually the case, those hands dont provide enough info to suggest enough that it is, and if it was the case it would only be with bad regs.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

The theory being that if they had AA or KK they'd usually just call your 3-bet to trap, therefore their range is weighted to hands that'll fold or that you're not in that bad of shape against?

at small stakes, this would be true. not at high stakes though cuz u want the psychological edge of shoving on the other guy and forcing him to fold or call off w/ a worse hand ...

besides if u dont jam AA or KK and the hand goes to showdown, next time you 're in this situation preflop you cant 4bet since villain will never put u on AA or KK and know u r FOS.

on the other hand, theres no way to do all this knowingly since villain will just tag u as erratic and that u dont know what you're doing (assuming hes a good player)

Originally Posted by Galapogos

I tried this out the other day and ended up sucking out on kings.

^^^ More proof that this is an awesome theory.

you guys are haters!!!

i think you left a lot of holes in this theorem. for instance, if you are 3betting an UTG raise, or UTG+1 raise and get 4 bet, than i dont think your theorem would apply very well. also you didnt specify as to whether you are getting 4 bet oop or ip.

i agree with this, which is why as villains in ur hands i just shove 100bb.

Originally Posted by Renton

i agree with this, which is why as villains in ur hands i just shove 100bb.

POKERSTARS GAME #16931328810: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2008/04/23 - 03:28:52 (ET)
Table 'Graffias IV' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Sweet.kr ($445.05 in chips)
Seat 2: limoni ($197 in chips)
Seat 3: DBS333 ($151.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Renton555 ($199 in chips)
Seat 5: Duckslayer2k ($200 in chips)
Seat 6: AAA_all4u ($118 in chips)
AAA_all4u: posts small blind $1
Sweet.kr: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [8h 9h]
limoni: folds
DBS333: folds
Renton555: raises $4 to $6
Duckslayer2k: raises $14 to $20
AAA_all4u: folds
Sweet.kr: folds
Renton555: raises $179 to $199 and is all-in
Duckslayer2k: folds
Renton555 collected $43 from pot
Renton555: shows [8h 9h] (high card Nine)

Can you elaborate a little (are you saying what mcat is saying)?

also marshall wtf is this psychological edge you're talking about that only exists at high stakes, and how is your play with AA/KK without more than 15 hands together gonna factor into it?

Marshall is like the annoying buzzing fly on the wall that is this forum.

Originally Posted by HalvSame

Can you elaborate a little (are you saying what mcat is saying)?

also marshall wtf is this psychological edge you're talking about that only exists at high stakes, and how is your play with AA/KK without more than 15 hands together gonna factor into it?

psychological edge is like ... its having your opponent leveled. say for example u 4bet bluff and get 5bet jammed and u fold or whatever. u have no idea what villain was 5betting you with. it coulda been a pure bluff it coulda been a decent hand it coulda been a monster. say a similar situation comes up 2 or 3 orbits later ... you have no idea what to do, but he knows that you folded to a 5bet making your 4bet this time much less credible.

maybe thats a bad example, but its more like ... if u r winning and not going to showdown, its natural for other players to tend to give you more respect because they either assume you are picking up hands or are outplaying the other players at the table. for the same reason, when you are getting beat down on and re-raised every time u enter a pot and cant seem to make a move its because your opponent has you leveled, which forces you to make a hand. its extremely difficult to explain ... its like u can feel it in your gut ..when the momentum is on your side or up against u, but that momentum is basically what im trying to describe. as massimo said ... by insta-4betting the first time and forcing villain to fold, it allows you this momentum.

Originally Posted by Carroters

Marshall is like the annoying buzzing fly on the wall that is this forum.

noobie haters, wtf??

The easy counter to every question in NLHE is very simple: Just be the first person to get it all-in preflop. Caz you give yourself fold equity and your never in that bad of shape with any hand. Ez game ldo?

Originally Posted by JonnyCosMo

The easy counter to every question in NLHE is very simple: Just be the first person to get it all-in preflop.

...sarcasm or something? if it is i cant tell cuz u only have 14 posts

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by Renton

i agree with this, which is why as villains in ur hands i just shove 100bb.

POKERSTARS GAME #16931328810: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2008/04/23 - 03:28:52 (ET)
Table 'Graffias IV' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Sweet.kr ($445.05 in chips)
Seat 2: limoni ($197 in chips)
Seat 3: DBS333 ($151.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Renton555 ($199 in chips)
Seat 5: Duckslayer2k ($200 in chips)
Seat 6: AAA_all4u ($118 in chips)
AAA_all4u: posts small blind $1
Sweet.kr: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [8h 9h]
limoni: folds
DBS333: folds
Renton555: raises $4 to $6
Duckslayer2k: raises $14 to $20
AAA_all4u: folds
Sweet.kr: folds
Renton555: raises $179 to $199 and is all-in
Duckslayer2k: folds
Renton555 collected $43 from pot
Renton555: shows [8h 9h] (high card Nine)

NH. Duckslayer would 4bet here a lot too, so that's an awesome example

Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

Originally Posted by JonnyCosMo

The easy counter to every question in NLHE is very simple: Just be the first person to get it all-in preflop.

...sarcasm or something? if it is i cant tell cuz u only have 14 posts

jonnycosmo is a poker deity

Originally Posted by nutsinho

Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

Originally Posted by JonnyCosMo

The easy counter to every question in NLHE is very simple: Just be the first person to get it all-in preflop.

...sarcasm or something? if it is i cant tell cuz u only have 14 posts

jonnycosmo is a poker deity

as he would want to make u all believe...

he actually just runs like one...