Never thought and wished I would make this kind of post

So after 2 years of poker I'm down to 25NL again. After 3 weeks without an internet connection, I started last week again and am down 14 buyins in 3500 hands, of which 10 at 50NL and 4 at 25 NL.
I've had a similar downswing not even half a year ago (probably not even 50000 hands back or so) which was about 25 buyins and made me move back from 100NL to 50NL to 25 NL then.

After 2 years of definately putting a shitload of time at reading and studying this game though all kind of sources, it seems I still haven't come much further. It's not like I use a high variance style nor am I prone to much tilt. I am very sure luck hasn't exactly been at my side the last year, but really if I stil can't beat the micros for a decent winrate yet, which seems I can't, I am really questioning if it's worth all the time and effort. It's not like poker gives a lot of fun when you're losing a lot, and the games get tougher every month.

I would have posted some stats, but I have lost all the hands before a few weeks back because of switching pc's. Over my last 3500 hands they are:
vpip: 19.2
pfr: 15.5
3bet: 4.8
Agg: 2.25
WTSD:23.5
W$SD:49.6
W&WSF: 39.6
I remember my stats over like 50000 hands being about the same, with at least WTSD a bit higher, fwiw.

I'm gonna cash out 500 bucks from my roll to save for a tv, which leaves me with 750 left at 25NL. I'm not actually sure why I post all this, ofcourse I'd like to have tips how to fix the fundamental leaks I obviously should have. But really, lots of stuff that are on the net or in books I have already read...so I either don't adapt it, don't adapt it the right way, or the things I read aren't meant (anymore) for the games I play in.

So not really sure what I'm asking, if someone has something to say please do so...

Don't get the TV, use the $500 to get a coach. There are several guys here that could give you a couple hours that would make back that $500 in about a week.

Trust me when I say, many of us have gone about our learning curve the wrong way and are/were stuck. There are some things that can be done.

"W$SD:49.6"

That jumps out at me. It tells me one of two things might be happening:

1. You are too stubborn seeking showdowns in situations where you are beat.
2. You aren't looking for the right competition (table/seat selection).

Those are just guesses and they may not be right, but there should always be enough soft players around that you should win over half of your showdowns. Unless you're just going through an unbelievable string of coolers and suckouts, of course - but that shouldn't happen for a whole year.

The simplest thing I think you can do is track all your biggest losing hands for a while and post them here.

Some rambling thoughts:

Going along w/ what Dale said about W$SD being low. Your AF is fairly low as is your WWSF. Even tho the sample is small it seems like when your playing nice & snug like that you should be doing a lot of the betting & getting some respect from the decent players. Look for ways to win more of the small pots.

Table selection & seat selection is paramount. A bad seat at a good table can be even worse than a decent seat at a bad table. I wouldnt be shocked if I double my winrate by seat selecting. Make sure to constantly keep this in mind.

How many tables do you usually play? Consider playing less & make sure you are getting really good reads on the fish & putting them to good use.

Monitor your thought process at the tables. You know the concepts, you understand most fundamentals, but are you applying them every hand? Are you asking yourself the right questions? or are you just pushing buttons on autopilot?

Improve your thought process. Like Jyms say get a coach or subscribe to a video site. Grinderschool has tons of Micro content & a great price. DC has a bunch of Micro series that seem very good. Leggo doesnt seem to have any & I dont have a Cardrunners membership. Also good places to find coaching if not thru FTR I'd imagine.

What site do you play on? A change could jump start you...and if not a deposit bonus certainly would.

Originally Posted by jyms

Don't get the TV, use the $500 to get a coach. There are several guys here that could give you a couple hours that would make back that $500 in about a week.

$500 for a "couple of hours" as a last ditch grab at a game you dont seem to be getting seems like a massively overpriced waste of money. Maybe i misunderstood your costing there though

hai Pel

gl OP, look at the game from different angles, maybe learn a new game. I always find when I learn a new game it helps my NL game because I have to think about theory and stuff again.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

hai Pel

gl OP, look at the game from different angles, maybe learn a new game. I always find when I learn a new game it helps my NL game because I have to think about theory and stuff again.

herrooo <3


yea i agree with all this. Id worry about paying to much to make it work though. I really dontt hink it should take a lot of expensive coaching to beat the micro limits though. Heres to hoping the US ban gets overturned and the fish come back

Thanks for the comments so far, some reaction;

Jyms - I consider getting a coach. I don't know exactly which FTR members do coaching, do you?..or can I look that up somewhere? Do you maybe have any recommendations?

I do struggle with the idea of using more than 2/3 of my roll for coaching though, if I can't seem to beat micros after all the effort. But on the other hand, it might be the best way to get things straight in my head.

Dale - I agree the W$SD is low, but the sample is small while running bad, so i wouldn't hang on to it too much. I don't remember what it was over a large sample, I'll try to get my PT2 database from 2 months back working again.

Reprisal - Some fair points. I play pokerstars atm, have been mixing Party and Stars in the past and have done a lot of bonuswhoring on all kind of sites. My original plan was to get a rakeback deal at i.e. Prima or FT once I was a 100NL reg.
I pick up some reload bonusses at Party and Stars every once in a while, but it's not really the money I care about.

Your points about table selection apply. I seem to do best against a table full of nit/tag regs, and struggle when OOP against a loose passive or LAG. Struggle resultswise, but also thought process wise.

I have played from 4 to 8 tables. 4 get's me bored a bit, 8 is autopilot..I think I could just play 12 instead of 8.
6 seems like a nice in between, but I have no problem playing 4 if I want to play optimal and work on my game.

Bigspenda - I might try some PLO...and really I think my playing style fits full ring more than 6max. But I haven't played that in over 1,5 year...might give it a try.

Pelion - I agree.

In general, really without wanting to be arrogant, it feels like I have read and know too much about the game for the stakes I'm playing. It fastly leads to FPS and impatience play.
A coach might be the only way to get the important things in front of my head again.

i disagree with you getting coaching. maybe just play 2 tbls and concentrate.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

hai Pel

gl OP, look at the game from different angles, maybe learn a new game. I always find when I learn a new game it helps my NL game because I have to think about theory and stuff again.

Definitely take spendas advice. All games will teach you something new that you can then go and apply to your game of choice.

Razz - Learn the stupidest game ever created. Learn supreme preflop patience and learn to quit when your behind.

Omaha - Learn that TPTK is NOT the nuts.

6 max Hold em - Position Position, and don't forget controlled aggression.

and finally....

2-7 triple draw - Ummmm....Learn how it feels to masturbate with a cheese grater?

What about trying FR? It will give you a different perspective against 6max. It will allow to train your patience.

Originally Posted by jimmy44

What about trying FR? It will give you a different perspective against 6max. It will allow to train your patience.

actually agree with this and at the lower limits playing super str8 forward poker wins 3bb/100 at fullring, plua there isnt to much variance. id definitely give it a shot if I were you.

Originally Posted by minSim

I do struggle with the idea of using more than 2/3 of my roll for coaching though, if I can't seem to beat micros after all the effort. But on the other hand, it might be the best way to get things straight in my head.

Yah no way you should use 2/3rds of your roll on coaching. If there are cheaper coaching alternatives, then that could be a better route.

Your WWSF and AF are low as others have suggested. You probably aren't using enough aggression postflop when you raise preflop, to steal pots when your range is stronger than theirs.

I don't think FR will advance your SH NL game too much BUT it will give you some variance free winnings, which is always nice.

experiment with different stack sizes.

20bb - not really recommend because it's super high variance, but still easy as pie. you'll learn how to optimize preflop play here...but you're better off doing this in SnGs

30-40bb - good shortstacking size where you have enough money behind to do check-bombs on the flop. here you'll optimize your preflop and flop play.

40-70bb - you can extend it to the turn.

70bb+ - river too.

what i'm trying to say is...you can selectively work on different streets in your game by buying in a certain amount. don't give in to all the 'short stackers suck' blah blah BS. what matters is $ in your pocket. short stackers inherently have an advantage over big stacks because you can remove decisions from later streets because you run out of money. at this point, i don't think the loss in EV is applicable to you...

we have very similar stats in VPIP/PFR/3bet but my aggro factor is over 4.

if you play tight you must play aggressively post flop. that is the TAG game. tight stats but weak post flop aggression is a losing gameplan

remember though that stat gets higher also when i'm aggressive with my good hands, raising your aggro factor isn't just for bluffing, it's imo more for value with good hands in bluffs in key spots where we have a solid read on villain's range.

I have decided to not try coaching for now.

Hyper, I will definately consider trying a 40-70 BB range.

Mixchange (and others), I agree with your saying about aggressiveness in relation to the other stats/overall gameplan. I will try working on that, although I haven't got a specific plan to do so right now....but I'm sure I'll think of one.

DO NOT go less than 100bb, totally different game. id def move to FR and think thats great advice.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

"W$SD:49.6"

That jumps out at me. It tells me one of two things might be happening:

1. You are too stubborn seeking showdowns in situations where you are beat.
2. You aren't looking for the right competition (table/seat selection).

Those are just guesses and they may not be right, but there should always be enough soft players around that you should win over half of your showdowns. Unless you're just going through an unbelievable string of coolers and suckouts, of course - but that shouldn't happen for a whole year.

The simplest thing I think you can do is track all your biggest losing hands for a while and post them here.

Although I agree in principle, dale, I would point out that I am a winning player and I have historically been 47% at SD over 750K hands, and Fnord is one of the best out there and he wins less than half his SDs. I think that finding spots to SD is far more important than your actual SD%--although if you get down in the low 40s there has to be something wrong.

I find that 6max helped my FR game, and I think FR can help the 6max game too....

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

DO NOT go less than 100bb, totally different game.

why do u think it's a bad idea for OP?
- you don't have that "he's got $$$ behind should i bet/fold or check/call?"...now it's just all in.
- buying lower has a higher variance than buying high, but if OP is making expensive mistakes on the turn and river it will save him money
- people auto-think u suck because you don't buy in max (buy in at like 62.44bb) and will stack off super lite.

Originally Posted by cardsman1992

Although I agree in principle, dale, I would point out that I am a winning player and I have historically been 47% at SD over 750K hands, and Fnord is one of the best out there and he wins less than half his SDs. I think that finding spots to SD is far more important than your actual SD%--although if you get down in the low 40s there has to be something wrong.

You're probably right about that. It just seems low to me for someone with standard TAgg stats playing small stakes.

Here's a common situation where I lose a SD but really didn't do much wrong.

JT in BB. 3 limpers, I check, board comes A76r. Checks around. Turn Q. Checks around again. River 3 no draws really come in. Check one more time, limper with 87 drags the pot.

I do think that most standard TAGs win over 50% at SD, I just don't get fixated on it. If I have a stretch where I am at 50%, I chalk it up to running a bit better than normal....

My stats are 17/11/2.5 FWIW....but that's FR and not SH.

In my opinion the thing that is holding you back is probably over-thinking situations.

- Stop fighting regs with marginal holdings
- Concentrate on the fish
- Table select better, if someone you respect sits next to you don't treat it like an opportunity to show your stuff. Leave.
- Stop assuming everyone is paying attention.
- I don't know how much this is only FR but as micro stakes no-one is adjusting to you unless you go totally insane. The regs suck and the fish donate. Avoid the few good (read half decent) regs you will encounter, take the fishes money, profit.

Honestly this might sound dumb but just tone down your thinking a few levels and you'll probs be more profitable.

Originally Posted by cardsman1992

I would point out that I am a winning player and I have historically been 47% at SD over 750K hands, and Fnord is one of the best out there and he wins less than half his SDs. I think that finding spots to SD is far more important than your actual SD%--although if you get down in the low 40s there has to be something wrong.

Fnord tends to experiment a lot different styles and strategies, and is generally very loose aggressive (at least that's what his posts seem to me).

W$@SD should be over 50% because for the mass majority of players, adopting the TAG approach requires this number to be >50%. it does not mean there aren't exceptions to the rule because they always is. Cocco_Bill destroys the games he's in and the first thing everyone will see is why the hell is he so passive? what works for him doesn't mean it'll work for you. but what will most likely work for you is what worked for the majority.

^ I agree with that. To expand on that point, I think a passive style can work with the right game/seat/villain selection. I often will be multi-tabling and find that I'm playing tight/agg at two tables and a little more loose/passive at one or two others - and the reason is that I've found villains who I can get into pots with, who will keep trying to make me fold. That's a great gameplan if you can keep them betting, and not get caught up playing the same way against the other players at the table. I do it pretty often, and I could almost see it working as a poker philosophy. But you'd have to be getting into pretty aggressive games, with at least a handful of really donkish players; otherwise you're just sacrificing too much EV every time you fail to bet or raise like a standard TAgg would.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

what works for him doesn't mean it'll work for you.

agree 100%


adapt to the game you are in. you have to learn to recognize (?) what game you are in though, and also know how to adapt

amp up the aggressionand pfr.

seriously

I can sweat you for a couple hours if you want some time. Not in the next couple weeks because I'm super busy but after that I won't have much to do. See if you can get a few others interested in sweating you as well. A lot of the time you just need fresh eyes on your game.

Originally Posted by Galapogos

I can sweat you for a couple hours if you want some time. Not in the next couple weeks because I'm super busy but after that I won't have much to do. See if you can get a few others interested in sweating you as well. A lot of the time you just need fresh eyes on your game.

This would be great of course.

I'll PM you in a few weeks, we'll see what my status is then and I'm sure we can work someting out.

49.5% is fine for W$@SD

I m about 47% over my last 50kish hands and I don't feel like the stat is bad in itself

Only winning 40% of the time when you see a flop is something I'd try to work on...

As far as I can remember from stats I have seen before, it seems like people that play looser have a higher WWSF.

That never made a lot of sense to me, and still doesn't.
Really, when you're generally in there with a stronger range, one should be winning more.

One explanation I can think of is that the sample size of stats I have seen isn't representative.
The other one I can think of is that those looser players we're generally just better players and therefor had a higher number. That one seems most reasonable.