Nitty decision from the SB

Jager is obviously a good FTRer and realizes me raising from the SB is pretty strong. He is 21/15.

PokerStars Game #8243705695: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/02/02 - 13:26:56 (ET)
Table 'Lugduna' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: Jager244 ($98.50 in chips)
Seat 3: GERTD ($287.25 in chips)
Seat 4: lloyd1987 ($104.65 in chips)
Seat 5: redgrape ($92.25 in chips)
redgrape: posts small blind $0.50
Weak Tite: is sitting out
Allanon85: is sitting out
Jager244: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to redgrape [Qd Qh]
Allanon85 leaves the table
GERTD: calls $1
lloyd1987: folds
redgrape: raises $4 to $5
Jager244: raises $12 to $17
redgrape: ????

id be tempted to reraise, he'll fold a lot if you tell him you like your hand.

What do u think his reraising range here? How bad is a fold?

considering the spot and the popularity of spewing here, folding is not bad IMO, infact i think its very boarderline. But saying that, you may be getting squeezed (wrong term but describes it well) here by a lot of hands. I also think jager will fold all but AA/KK here if you come over the top, maybe even KK but i doubt it. He could certainly have something like 88+ AQ etc

I'M awww in

If anything, Jager realizes that you can be maniacal. Him picking up AA/KK here would be a serious cooler, since he's likely to 3-bet you so light. Some of your posts display recklessness so I'd doubt he's worried about you having a hand here all that much.

Another fun option would be to c/r AI on non A/K flops. But I prefer to push now since I think you get snap-called by AK.

I'm pretty sure Jager isn't doing this light, i think he knows anyone who raises from the SB has the goods. Pushing seems pretty sexy though.

I agree. If Jager has been paying attention to your posts lately he knows you are 3betting light and going to war with marginal cards. I go all-in to neutralize his positional advantage and get a call from a weaker holding.

That said, I don't hate a fold. You only have $5 involved.

I didn't threebet.

I am not saying you did. I am saying you are putting out an image of preflop aggression with marginal holdings lately. Jager should know you are playing loose pre-flop and he won't respect your push. I don't worry about AA or KK here. If he has them, so what. You've spewed worse before.
If you get the feeling this isn't the time, then fold. You only have $5 invested.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I'm pretty sure Jager isn't doing this light, i think he knows anyone who raises from the SB has the goods. Pushing seems pretty sexy though.

Is an SB raise really _that_ strong? I don't think it is. An UTG raise is strong, because you have everyone to act behind you. Here, you are in the SB, facing one limper and only the BB left to act. You could easily be stealing the dead money by raising out of the SB.

I don't think BB has to give you credit for a big hand here at all. I have definitely been known to raise a strong ace out of the SB, if I think the EP limpers are weak.

Anyways, all I'm saying is that I think the BB could think you are stealing, and his 3-bet could be somewhat light, or at least lighter than you are giving him credit for (to be considering folding queens).

Definitely don't fold.

Interesting... I would *not* expect a raise out of the SB with 1 limper to mean much more or less than an open raise from, say CO. It could just be a hand you don't want to play 3-way OOP but too good to fold (KJo?)

ISF obviously thinks he doesn't raise much out of the SB - question is, what does JAGER think? Does he think like us or like Iowa?

I think if you're raising from the SB with the same hands as the CO you're leaking pretty big.

I think Jager may think I could be being frisky from the SB but idk, its like 50/50.

Jager's raise definitely means something strong. I don't think you can fold this though. See what happens post flop.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I think if you're raising from the SB with the same hands as the CO you're leaking pretty big.

I guess it depends on what you raise from the CO! Also, it's a little different because you might complete with many hands in SB that you would not limp in CO (raise or fold). I note that in the thread on 6max position stats, there was a huge variation in how people played the SB.

But really, all that matters for this hand is what Jager thinks! Should we assume that he was reading that thread at the time (assuming you posted your stats)

if jager is good he only has QQ KK AA here when you have a tight raising range oop

I don't think ISF has an image of tight OOP raising range here. His image is marred by spews and light 3-bet posts lately. Just my opinion.

My image may spew over to the SB here with one limper, so Jager may think I am frisky in this spot, but he'd be wrong.

Reads:
1. The limper here is a 53/3 super fish.
2. I feel because of this that Skins range here could be KJ+, AT+, any PP, maybe anything suited. If he gets rid of me then he isolates the fish, who has no understanding of position.
3. If Skins calls I have position on him.
4. I fully expect the Fish to call my reraise.

Now what is my range here?

Shoving here is terrible as I see no reason to think your opponent is re-raising light and even if he is, picking off a c-bet in a bloated pot is sexy.

I see a flop here and re-evaluate against my opponent's range.

Calling might keep the bad player in the hand and I'm pretty sure you hyper-aggro TAggs are betting the flop 90%+ of the time. By that point, I'm quite comfortable getting it in with an over-pair even if your range is something like TT+/AK as there won't be much money behind. Although, if you're only c-betting something like 1/2 pot it will fustrate me quite a bit (discuss.)

yea i just noticed, this hand history isn't correct. whatd the fish do?

fish folded, sorry idk why that wasn't there.

Pushing here is only getting called by AA/KK/maybe AK.
Therefore, this allows Jager to play his hand perfectly. If he has JJ/TT he's folding.

Originally Posted by Genitruc

Another fun option would be to c/r AI on non A/K flops.

Honestly, I think this approach will make the most money in the long run.

great posts. there must be some really deep stuff going on between you guys when you play each other. you probably know each others games so well that every hand you have to triple and quadruple bluff each other. (i'm exagerating a bit)

what happened in the rest of the hand? and what were both players thoughts on the rest of the hand.

and jager, those points you made - are they what you were actually thinking? or are you playing devils advocat and you actually had AA? lol. i bet you wanted him to think those above points but really you had the absolute nuts.

Originally Posted by pokerroomace

great posts. there must be some really deep stuff going on between you guys when you play each other. you probably know each others games so well that every hand you have to triple and quadruple bluff each other. (i'm exagerating a bit)

lol, probably not.

I folded and he showed JJ.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I folded and he showed JJ.

lol results = ALL IN!!!

i don't get why he showed...

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I folded and he showed JJ.

ahh. so jager was telling the truth. it might not have been the worst fold. since he has position there's a good chance you're still losing the hand. the only thing you can do is push. but you don't want to do that.
when the flop shows an ace or a king, there's a good chance he'll take the pot away from you. he could win a nice pot on a J hi flop. and he might even convince you to fold on a T hi flop since you think his range is so tight. he might convince you he has AA or KK. so it's not such a bad fold

He showed because before I folded I wrote wow, QQ.

told you to reraise....

i think him reraising JJ here is bad

Originally Posted by gabe

i think him reraising JJ here is bad

Anyone else agree here??

Originally Posted by Jager

Originally Posted by gabe

i think him reraising JJ here is bad

Anyone else agree here??

Plan if Iowa 4-bets?

Originally Posted by Jager

Originally Posted by gabe

i think him reraising JJ here is bad

Anyone else agree here??

I sure did, that's why i folded.
I think you misread me, I don't normally raise a lot of hands in this situation.

I think you're losing value against this type of limper then. I am raising here to isolate the limper. If Skinsfan has a hand I will only find out by raising.

What else am I suppose to do? Fold? Only play my JJ for set value? Call down any non A/K/Q flop?

idk you're in position you could just call.
I remember Irish eyes in his video saying that he doesn't raise AJ from the SB or BB in this situation. it just sucks to play it oop. my raising range here is tighter than my UTG range. Is this a leak?

Originally Posted by Jager

If Skinsfan has a hand I will only find out by raising.

bad logic

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by Jager

If Skinsfan has a hand I will only find out by raising.

bad logic

If your at least going to take the time to write bad logic you could take the minute to explain it.

raising for info is usually bad, but its really bad preflop. it turns his hand into a bluff.

Originally Posted by gabe

raising for info is usually bad, but its really bad preflop. it turns his hand into a bluff.

That's interesting, because ive been debating on whether you should ever raise a flop where you're making every thing that's you're beating you fold and everything thats beating you call.
How much dead money has to be in the pot for u to want to raise for info to save money on later streets? If you want to raise for info with the situation above is it better to just fold?

Originally Posted by gabe

raising for info is usually bad, but its really bad preflop.

Sklansky advocates it in NLHE T&P, the section we covered last week in the book club forum. But it didn't generate much discussion.

raise for information? here???????? If we raise here, it better be with the intention of calling a shove.

My primary intention here is to isolate with the fish, but I thought that I would learn more about Iowa's hand too.

if you want the fish in, why would you reraise??

Originally Posted by gabe

if you want the fish in, why would you reraise??

This fish regularly called reraises with QTo...

Originally Posted by Jager

Originally Posted by gabe

if you want the fish in, why would you reraise??

This fish regularly called reraises with QTo...

Cold and after limping?

The other consideration is that if you can keep the fish in the hand, it will tend to keep Jager in line post-flop because he knows there is a pretty good chance he's getting called.

Knowing Danny pretty well, i could probably narrow down his range pretty well here.

KQs, AJ+, 77+. Would you agree here?

Now here's his range for calling the reraise:
AK, KK, AA, and well, you'd think JJ and QQ on many days.

So here's where i disagree with others. Why shouldn't we reraise for information here? We all know Danny (skisnfan) is a tricky, aggro, and bluffy player. If we just cold call we leave his hand pretty undefined and allow him to play us. By reraising, we usually pick up 6BB (which is a good pickup, i'd take that every hand with JJ. Everyone would), or every so often we get a call and play it for mostly set value (and sometimes good bluffing oppurtunities).

You're wrong Max, I raise AQ+ and 99+, i stopped raising weaker hands in that spot awhile ago. Also my call range is clearly way off, as I folded QQ.
You're completely taking out value from your analysis also. I'm only calling with better hands and probably folding all worse hands.
Also i'm oop so there's no reason to worry about me being tricky or bluffy.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Also i'm oop so there's no reason to worry about me being tricky or bluffy.

lol, why don't i believe that.

No Max I'm saying he shouldn't worry about me bluffing in a deep pot OOP because OOP I have to make my hand obvious. I could bluff maybe but it's not something he's going to have to worry about as much as if he was OOp.

a few things:

1) I just assumed that the limper folded after the SB raise, BB 3-bet because it didn't show his action. Obviously he acts for the second time before redgrape acts for the second time.

2) If this limper really is a fish, we can profitably raise a lot of hands here, despite being out of position.

3) If #2 is the case, as it should be, I really disagree with gabe's advice that BB should only be 3-betting QQ+ here. Of course he still might be, even if he could be profitably 3-betting a lot more hands then that.

Note that Jager should realize I'm relatively new to this table and dont have the read of a table fish yet.

Originally Posted by Lukie

2) If this limper really is a fish, we can profitably raise a lot of hands here, despite being out of position.

3) If #2 is the case, as it should be, I really disagree with gabe's advice that BB should only be 3-betting QQ+ here.

just because #2 might be the case, doesnt mean reraising JJ is good here. i would rather be in position of the aggressor with the fish in the hand than just isolating a really tight range from the original raiser.