Quote Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
fold pf, you don't have set odds and thats all your TT is right now.
I got the "fold preflop" response three times now which I don't get. It's 3.50 for me to call both raises and both villains have full stacks of 50 or more, which I also have - plus if the button ends up folding pre there's extra dead money in the pot - PLUS the SB in particular is an action player, and the button isn't far behind him - so how am I not getting set odds?

About the rest of it - I don't think I put this very well, so I'm going to explain in more detail. The table had gotten very aggressive as a whole over the previous orbit - there had been two people stacked (one of them was me), a lot of raises and a couple of 3-bets. The two other players in this hand were involved in all of that. The SB was very much a donk and I felt was capable of 3-betting from that spot with a pretty wide range. The button was not crazy but loose enough, and he was definitely calling the 3-bet preflop with most of his raising hands except maybe weak aces - probably he would call with any small or mid pairs, two overcards, or suited connectors. That was my read on the two of them.

The flop was a real problem. I thought there was a good chance I was leading the two of them. I figured the button was behind me for sure unless he happened to have like 56s or 22. The SB was kind of a mystery because I knew he wasn't 3-betting everything, but he could have a lot of big cards and medium pairs and even weird shit like QJ in his range. His check made me lean toward thinking he had missed big cards; then again I thought he was crazy enough to be capable of checking AA/KK/QQ in that spot and trying for a check-raise. (Believe me I've seen it, and believe me this guy was in the right demographic to do it.) So my intent there was twofold: 1. Maybe weed out some overcard type hands, or at least make them pay to play. 2. Same deal with flush draws, who would definitely call but hopefully not raise - I planned to bet bigger on the turn if it wasn't a spade and if I didn't get raised on the flop, which is how it went down. 3. Most importantly to gather information. I'm not an information bettor, but in this spot against these particular players, it seemed a lot more necessary than usual.

The flop call-call told me there was probably a couple draws (one flush and one overcards?) or a draw and a monster. On the turn I expected to bet-fold if the SB check-raised me; or just kinda wing it against the button. His push really bothered me but he gave sort of a timing tell (a delay of about 5 seconds before pushing) that I thought moved it more toward a call than a fold. And especially with the SB folding (missed his overs) I thought a call was the right decision.