Philosophical questions about 6max. Demented ramblings.

First off, apologies for the disjointed post...

My BR has been built up by playing SnGs so it's been pretty easy - play pretty much everything you hit (unless it's nut or nutlike) quite fast. One thing I've learned in 6maxing though is really how hard postflop play is (and how much money is there)... so help!

A few other things: at the small limits (25NL and below), preflop raises of about 4bb and less get little to no respect and anything bigger gets no action. Is this typical?

How much benefit is there from slowplaying? It seems that hitting a moderately dangerous flop (say TPTK on a drawing board - ATo on a board of say Td 6s5s) is tough. Potting or near-potting never gets respect if the pot is $1 or $2.

I have also been frustrated when I turn straights or flushes. It seems that a 1/2 to 3/4 pot bet into a modest pot ($6-8) gets called with the accompanying Card Of Pain on the river (either a 3-flush against my straight or a 4-flush against my weakish flush). Is overbetting the pot a bad idea, in general?

Any general guides on playing flopped mid pairs against preflop raisers? I find it extremely difficult to call down increasingly large bets, even with position (say something like holding 9sTs on a board of KcTh3d). Now against many of the better players on 6max, their c-bet is credible. What is a typical line? check and see how the turn is? Reraise?

Fnord often speaks of players that tip their hand on the turn. What do you mean, fnord? One that comes to mind is the c-bettor whose flop bet was called (and stops betting on the turn).

Now this is read dependent, but how often would one try a play to steal the pot on the turn?

... so many questions. Thanks for any answers.

I'll try to hit all of these. Answers are standard for me but maybe not for others, so hopefully you'll get feedback other than mine.

Originally Posted by Blinky

A few other things: at the small limits (25NL and below), preflop raises of about 4bb and less get little to no respect and anything bigger gets no action. Is this typical?

Yes. I usually try to find the sweet spot for the table, amping up the raises until you get the right amount of action. 1-2 callers is fine. At $25 tables (BB is .25) I almost always used 1.00 or 1.25 as my standard raise. If everyone was calling that, I'd go to 1.50. If you get the same one or two people calling every raise, that's fine - they're calling with worse hands and you just need to continuation bet a bit less and play your made hands strong post-flop.

How much benefit is there from slowplaying? It seems that hitting a moderately dangerous flop (say TPTK on a drawing board - ATo on a board of say Td 6s5s) is tough. Potting or near-potting never gets respect if the pot is $1 or $2.

Don't worry too much about respect. What you want is for your opponent to make mathematical errors - that's how you make money. If the pot is small, bet the pot or even slightly overbet; anything up to 1.00 should be a 1.00 bet. As it gets bigger you can scale back your bets a little. You'll get called a lot. Then you just need to read the board well and bet the turn appropriately. A lot of people call with very marginal hands on the flop and then fold to a good-sized bet on the turn... that's typical loose/passive play. It's a big mistake, and it's lining your pockets.

I have also been frustrated when I turn straights or flushes. It seems that a 1/2 to 3/4 pot bet into a modest pot ($6-8) gets called with the accompanying Card Of Pain on the river (either a 3-flush against my straight or a 4-flush against my weakish flush). Is overbetting the pot a bad idea, in general?

Depends. If you have them read as a chaser, bet more and make them pay. You shouldn't need to go larger than pot-sized once the pot gets that big. If they're still calling pot-sized bets on a $6-8 pot, at a $25 table... well, they're not going to fold to anything. So just make a large enough bet to let them make a mistake.

Any general guides on playing flopped mid pairs against preflop raisers? I find it extremely difficult to call down increasingly large bets, even with position (say something like holding 9sTs on a board of KcTh3d). Now against many of the better players on 6max, their c-bet is credible. What is a typical line? check and see how the turn is? Reraise?

As a rule, and without a read, I would call the first bet and see what happens. If they check, then you bet 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot and they may go away. If they bet again, you're going to need to develop a read on the player to continue playing against them. You might look them up once to see what kind of hand they have for future reference. But then again, with table turnover being what it is, this might not be worthy information for the price. I play this pretty cautiously myself - usually call one bet and hope he slows way down. I'm not often the kind of player who is going to try running down every pre-flop raiser just because I caught a piece of the board. However, if the turn card is scary (three flush or three to a straight, or a paired card other than the one I paired) I might fire a raise out there and see if I can steal the pot. Between the combination of the scare card and the fact that my opponent may just be continuation betting, this is usually a good circumstance to steal momentum and probably the pot.

Fnord often speaks of players that tip their hand on the turn. What do you mean, fnord? One that comes to mind is the c-bettor whose flop bet was called (and stops betting on the turn).

Fnord can probably address this better than me. The c-bettor you mention is the most common type. If they c-bet the flop and then check the turn, it's about 85% likely they have unpaired overs. Bet and take it down. Some players might get cute - and I should know, I am one - by playing a hand a little differently from standard. Examples:

- I have AA on a garbagey board, and my first bet gets called. Turn and river cards are not obvious scare cards; I may check/call or even check/raise some opponents.

- I have KK and the flop is king high to give me a set. I will use a normal continuation bet, maybe tending a bit weak, and if it gets called I'll check/raise the turn.

- I have AQ and the board is queen high. I may play this like the AA hand above. Again this depends on the opponent. If I have someone pegged as loose/aggressive, I like to check to them at some point in the hand to induce a bet. In a home game one time I raised a LAgg guy with KQ and hit a king and bet into him, and he called. The turn was a blank so I checked, he bet big, and I raised all-in; he folded his hand, which probably wasn't even a draw. This kind of player is exploitable and there are enough of them in 6-max to justify playing the hand this way at times.

Anyway back to my point: the turn check is a pretty reliable indicator that the raiser has missed. But watch out for a check/raise or call, and make notes on anyone who comes up with this kind of trickery.

Other tipping of hands on the turn may include a small blocking bet (e.g. on a $2 pot on the flop, opp. bets $1; then on the turn with a $4 pot, bets just $1 again). That usually means a hand that hasn't improved (draw or modest pair) and opp. is afraid of what you might have. You don't really need a very specific read here, I raise those bets out of habit, particularly with a scary turn card. You might also see someone use a continuation bet on the flop and then a big overbet (probably all-in) on the turn - that's a read thing (could be a c-bet bluff or someone protecting an overpair). I usually assume it's an overpair protection play until I have a read that says otherwise. Yet another common one is someone who flat calls a bet from you on the flop and then min-raises your bet on the turn. It's a borderline lock that they're slowplaying something - take a look at the board, but it's probably a set or two pair.

If your coming from an SnG background to play ring then I'd give you the following advice. Since I too made the same jump months ago.

Ring is a different game than SnG's (espeicially if you played turbos). Stacks are deep and you need to be able to play all streets smartly. SnG's quickly become preflop push fests... Its rare that you get all your money in preflop in full ring.

I think starting with 6max games is not the smartest way to go about things. Though 6 max does have more profit potential from what i've seen, you are just learning post flop skills and 6 max is best played fast and loose. You should start at full ring and play fairly tight. Learn to play position and premium hands while developing a skill for spotting betting patterns. When your comfortable with this and want to expand your range of hands you can try 6 max again.

As far as your 3/4 pot bets getting called.. well at NL 25 you'll see all sorts of shit like people holding on to gutshot draws till the river, etc. Don't overbet the pot to discourage callers. Let them call with the second best hand. Sometimes they'll hit their straights/flushes and soemtimes they won't. The beauty is that most players at NL 25 will let you kow when you're beat, they go from check calling your 1/2 pot bets to making pot sized bets when they hit. They have no concept of value betting, they're all about getting their money in once they make a hand.

Hopefully this post is helpful. Good Luck.