A-Q Confused on Flop

Villan is 36/9/0.5 over 30 hands. He has donk potted 2 flops before this hand, but neither hand went to showdown.
Player 1 is a complete unknown


$1/$2

Hero(UTG): $444.45
Villan(SB): $212
Player 1(BB): $100.55
3 other players

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero: [As Qd]

Hero: raises $6 to $8
3 folds
Villan: calls $7
Player 1: calls $6
****FLOP****[Ad 8s 4s]
Villan: bets $24
Player 1: calls $24
Hero: ?

raise to 100 and cry call a push from villain.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

raise to 100 and cry call a push from villain.

Ugh, are we really calling a push here? I thought about the possibility of raising, but if we get shoved on, I cant imagine we are nearly ever ahead even considering the odds we would be getting, but maybe Im wrong. I think in this situation I would probably just call in the heat of the moment and then have no idea wtf to do on the turn.

Could you expand on this a little more?

Idk Andy I don't like raising either but it's pretty clear we have to, and if we do we have to raise to an amount to commit ourselves to a push (because of possibly villain and player 1 drawing) But we can't really fold to a push for 100 more.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Idk Andy I don't like raising either but it's pretty clear we have to, and if we do we have to raise to an amount to commit ourselves to a push (because of possibly villain and player 1 drawing) But we can't really fold to a push for 100 more.

Yea, I agree we need to call a shove if we make it $100, but I was just thinking about if we made a raise to like $72 or so.

While I dont disagree with saying we have to raise, I think it would be helpful [and not just to me] to hear the thought process behind a raise and why calling would be bad.

what's wrong with calling in position with a good hand?

yeah i raise to $75 and fold to a push, dont have pot odds to chase 3 or less outs.

Originally Posted by mixchange

yeah i raise to $75 and fold to a push, dont have pot odds to chase 3 or less outs.

$75 allows our opponents to play their hands too well I think. In fact, we may as well raise to $115 to ensure they don't play it well.

calling seems ok, but id rather thin the field and might get more info with raising.
i like the 3x-ish raise, and put shorty all in on the turn if they call it, not sure about big stack but prob fold if they push.

$100+ is overplaying it imo. donk bets like that are often just "see where im at" type bets.

At the time, i figured Villain would be leading (A-x, Xs-Xs, two pair/sets). My plan if Player 1 had not also called would have been to call on the flop and fold to a strong double barrel.

Since Player 1 called (A-x, Xs-Xs) i figured a raise would be better with the additional dead money in the pot and the potential that the shortstack would be drawing to the flush cheaply.

I actually raised to $105 and Villain pushed. I called and villain turned over Ks-Qs. The Js hit on the turn and villain won the pot with a flush.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

what's wrong with calling in position with a good hand?

The 3-way nature of this hand puts us up against more collective outs and encourages us to get our money in while we're probably good instead of peeling.

Heads-up calling for information is my line.

is no one folding this, or even considering folding?(the flop) I think I did fold in these situations a couple of times. And I don't think i am that nittish. How much of the time does player 1 has a better hand here? I think it is quite a lot. Of course raising would fold out his AK probably, but if I raise I would definitely fold to a push.

Originally Posted by wouterpoker

if I raise I would definitely fold to a push.

WTF? Flush draws are pushing this soooo often.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

what's wrong with calling in position with a good hand?

You lose equity in the pot by letting weaker hands draw for good odds (in this case free).

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

You lose equity in the pot by letting weaker hands draw for good odds (in this case free).

However, you can set-up an even bigger edge on the turn and gather information reguarding his holding (determine if he has an even bigger made hand) in the process.

given that this player donk betted twice so far we can be sure that his range contains a lot more than sets+draws. player 2 likely doesnt have a 13+ out draw or set as he cold called.

since this is true and we cant let two players draw at this pot for free id raise to 80+ and call a shove from either player.

Another problem with overcalling the flop is that your hand is mostly face-up if you do. This makes it easy for your opponents to avoid making mistakes against you on later streets, so you benefit from taking it down on the flop.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by mixchange

yeah i raise to $75 and fold to a push, dont have pot odds to chase 3 or less outs.

$75 allows our opponents to play their hands too well I think. In fact, we may as well raise to $115 to ensure they don't play it well.

can you spare me the vague mystical stuff and just say something that makes sense?