Q-Q BvB 200NL

Villain is 20/10/2 over 70 hands. He doesn't seem like a very good player.

Big mistake/0EV?

POKERSTARS GAME #11703163100: ($1/$2)

Hero(SB): ($243.25 in chips)
Villain(BB): ($270.95 in chips)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero: [Qc Qh]
3 folds
Hero: raises $6 to $8
Villain: raises $8 to $16
Hero: raises $34 to $50
Villain: raises $34 to $84
Hero: raises $159.25 to $243.25 and is all-in

4bets/5bets are like...always AA/KK. QQ/AK would push.

i dont like it. if he does this with AK/JJ then its a lot closer but from this kind of player im thinking this is mainly AA and sometimes KK.

Barring some extreme situations, is a 5-bet preflop ever not KK+?

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Barring some extreme situations, is a 5-bet preflop ever not KK+?

Agreed, and especially how he does it with his small small raises. Plus, this is not exactly some super lagtard we are talking about here.

Probably a mistake unless you've 4-bet him multiple times in the last 5 hands.

folding QQ in a blind battle for 100BB is LOLbad

Originally Posted by mcatdog

folding QQ in a blind battle for 100BB is LOLbad

20/10's don't blind battle.

If you're sure his range is KK-AA then you have to fold KK to this action too right? That's so dumb, I'm never gonna fold KK here no matter how many times people insist he only ever has KK-AA.

We've only got 70 hands on this guy and it doesn't sound like we've got any solid reads on him, I think it's just a really bad habit to make heroic folds and heroic calls against unknowns. Why can't we just play ABC poker against unknowns instead of trying to be Phil Hellmuth or something.

doesnt ABC poker say to fold QQ to 5-bets?

id call the min 5bet and c/c any bet on a non AK flop

i agree this is AA/KK a lot but once u 4bet 1/4th of ur stack i think the "hes being crazy % + pot odds + absolute hand strength" >>>>>> my gut instinct he has AA or KK

however, we should still call the 5bet and allow him to bluff as unlikley as this may seem (i will also likely stack off on a K high flop)

Well put sauce. Hand ranges >>>>> reads in my opinion (especially when you only have 70 hands on someone). I definitely use reads / stats when I'm facing a marginal decision in terms of my hand range, but I just think it's a real bad habit to make incredibly exploitable / bad plays because you think you're so awesome at poker that you can peer into someone's soul and put them on the nuts (or conversely to put them on air and call a shove with 22 or something).

i dont think anyone was trying to read his soul or anything and put him on an exact hand. they were just saying that his hand range pretty much AA/KK. its not some read its just the range. the guy is 20/10 this kind of guy isnt going to do this hardly ever without one of those 2 hands and i doubt that kind of guy gets into some kind of crazy blind battle.

He's got KK+ just about 100% of the time. I'll call the $34 5-bet to win a $480+ pot.

My reasoning for shoving all in preflop at the time was that i didn't want to get bluffed off of my hand if an Ace or a King flopped. I also figured he would be pot committed to call a shove with A-K. I also figured that Q-Q in 6Max BvB is like K-K preflop for ~100BB.


I had an unusual opportunity though to play the hand in a 5bet pot for a flop, and taking that line seems better than just shoving all in preflop, basically because it gives my opponent the opportunity to fold if he was bluffing.

Is the fact that i am OOP if i had decided to take a flop relevant? For example if i for some reason decided to 5bet bluff preflop and got called, i would check behind on the flop if i were in position.

i dont think being OOP will matter too much if you call the 5bet since it will be going in on the flop anyways if you decide you are going to play for stacks.

Originally Posted by I Like Pie

He's got KK+ just about 100% of the time. I'll call the $34 5-bet to win a $480+ pot.

Since folding on most flops would be borderline retarded after calling his reraise, you're also calling $34 to lose a $480+ pot.

I had an unusual opportunity though to play the hand in a 5bet pot for a flop, and taking that line seems better than just shoving all in preflop, basically because it gives my opponent the opportunity to fold if he was bluffing.

isnt that a really bad thing to do? if you think he might be bluffing why let him see a flop and maybe hit something?

the two min reraises scream AA to me but i think you have to call the 5 bet because of implied odds if you set up. There is essentially no way villian is not pushing any flop with the pot over 80bb going to the flop. However, the only way that is profitable here IMO is if you can fold when you flop an overpair.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Originally Posted by I Like Pie

He's got KK+ just about 100% of the time. I'll call the $34 5-bet to win a $480+ pot.

Since folding on most flops would be borderline retarded after calling his reraise, you're also calling $34 to lose a $480+ pot.

It would be retarded if you think he could have JJ or AK but my feeling is that he's got KK or AA here just about always. I wouldn't even call a half pot bet on the flop.
There is no way I'm losing a $480+ pot here saving a turn or river suckout cause I'm not continuing if I don't hit.

Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

i dont think anyone was trying to read his soul or anything and put him on an exact hand. they were just saying that his hand range pretty much AA/KK. its not some read its just the range. the guy is 20/10 this kind of guy isnt going to do this hardly ever without one of those 2 hands and i doubt that kind of guy gets into some kind of crazy blind battle.

What you aren't understanding is that the villain wouldn't even have to be "crazy" to be trying to get all-in preflop with JJ or AK in a blind battle, it would be standard and that's why you can't fold QQ. I'm certainly not suggesting that he's getting out cf control with some stupid hand. His bet sizing would be weird if he had JJ/AK but some people have a messed up understanding of bet sizing so I don't read too much into it unless I've seen them make weird sized bets before and taken note of what they showed down in those hands. I assume this is also the reason why dsaxton said folding on the flop would be retarded, since you're not sure you're beat and the pot odds would be huge.

Also could someone who thinks folding is correct, please answer my question of if you're sure his range is KK/AA then would you fold KK here and if not then why not.

hes 20/10 though thats not the type of player to do this with JJ AK. its possible but a pretty small possibilty.
just because some people have a messed up understanding of bet sizing doesnt mean that you cant make a generalization about this that this min 5 raising is usually AA/KK/QQ. you dont have to know certain things for sure about someone to use information.

no i wouldnt fold KK here because i think that QQ would be more of a possibilty and with pot odds already and the small chance of the time he is doing this with jj/ak/?? would make it a call.

Let me clarify my stance: I'm with ILP. I'm calling for set value. With KK I want to do the same, but it's harder because with that line, we fold to his KK 100% of the time postflop. I'd have to do more math than I want to see if calling for a KK set is +EV.

It's a strange spot where you could actually make more of a case for calling with QQ than KK IMO.

He is 20/10. Call his 3bet, and play your hand. Completely standard.

And you can't play KK for set value. Ever, pretty much.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Well put sauce. Hand ranges >>>>> reads in my opinion

WTF that makes no sense. Reading is part of putting together hand ranges, you can't just throw something together with no reads.

I have to say i don't like how you played it because IMO your hand plays horrible against the hand's he'll play in a fourbet pot. My gut normally is to 4bet in this spot because im willing to pump fist when i get it all in. Here I don't pump my fist and expect AA to show up here a lot.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

And you can't play KK for set value. Ever, pretty much.

Why not? If you're in early position and stacks are deep (200 BB or more) then felting KK against a tight player is probably a leak.

Look at it this way, if it's folded to you in the SB and you have QQ, the BB's random hand has you beat less than 1% of the time. If you're UTG, one of the other 5 random hands at the table has you beat about 2.5% of the time. In other words the relative strength of QQ in the SB is almost 3 times as great as the relative strength of KK UTG. So why do people want to fold this QQ but are willing to get all-in with KK automatically from any position? Is it because they're focusing too much on the absolute strength of their hand and not enough on position? I think so.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

WTF that makes no sense. Reading is part of putting together hand ranges, you can't just throw something together with no reads.

For post-flop, that's absolutely true. But for pre-flop, not really. When a new poster registers on FTR and posts a 10NL hand saying this guy 4-bet me all-in for $8 should I fold KK here, we all say no, because KK just doesn't run into AA often enough to worry about it and it won't really hurt your winrate to get all-in with KK every time, the only way you can really hurt it is if you make too many weak folds with KK to significant action. I feel the same way about QQ in the blinds, it's in the range of hands that I'm happy to get all-in with regardless of reads because the only way I could really hurt my winrate in the blinds is by folding hands like this too much.

I didn't say that. I said it should almost never be played for set value. That doesn't mean that it must be felted preflop. The rare occurances where it should be played for set value is when deep, villian is super nitty and weak, villian thinks you're nitty, and/or villian has like minraised 5bet and you're deep enough to setmine his almost obvious AA. Could still be a toss up then.

I try to look insane enough that even super nits think that AK and QQ are the nuts vs me.

Mcat,
Preflop is the same deal as postflop, our preflop reads are he's a 20/10. Barring no other reads i have his range as 45% AA, 20%AK, 15% some random hand, and 20% KK. Do you disagree? That being said I agree with sauce. All in on no Ace or King flop.

The last part of your logic seems to be "we have QQ all in" which is not only horrible logic but isnt even advice.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Mcat,
Preflop is the same deal as postflop, our preflop reads are he's a 20/10. Barring no other reads i have his range as 45% AA, 20%AK, 15% some random hand, and 20% KK. Do you disagree? That being said I agree with sauce. All in on no Ace or King flop.

The last part of your logic seems to be "we have QQ all in" which is not only horrible logic but isnt even advice.

I'd play it the same as sauce as well. Just because I'd never fold QQ in the blinds doesn't necessarily mean shoving is the best way to go.

I disagree that never folding certain hands in certain situations is horrible logic. Imagine if you were playing a rock paper scissors game where if paper beats rock or rock beats scissors then the loser gives the winner a dollar, but if scissors beats paper then the loser gives the winner a thousand dollars. The argument that you guys are making based on his 20/10 stats is like saying that since your opponent picked rock the last 25 times in a row, you should definitely pick paper this time. I am saying I would not pick paper in that game because the consequences of being wrong are so much greater than the consequences of losing another dollar if you pick scissors and he picks rock again. Folding QQ in the blinds for 100 BB is sooooo exploitable that it's like picking paper in that game. And getting stacked when he has AA is like losing a dollar because that setup happens so rarely that it won't hurt your winrate very much at all to get stacked every time there, but if folding QQ to a 5-bet is your standard "ABC poker" play as Bode-ist said then you're going to be losing a lot more value in the long run than you would be by playing for stacks here.

I used to care a lot more about playing unexploitably than I do now, I don't mind making slightly exploitable plays if I think my opponent is playing even worse and I can exploit his mistakes by doing so. But that only applies to situations that are at least a little bit close, which this one isn't and that's why I say that hand ranges >>>> reads for pre-flop play. I can't count how many times I've made a weak-tight laydown, or just called instead of raised because I thought I had a read that my opponent was super nitty, and instead I found that I lost value or got shown a bluff and that I was the one getting exploited in the hand.

just saying never fold QQ for 100bb from the blinds is retarded.
ok so over 1000 hands some guy is 3/1/1.5 and he raises 3.5xbb from the sb you make it like 12xbb he shoves and you are calling with QQ?
hes a 20/10 and hes min raising and 5betting this, hes not doing that with a very wide range.