Q8s 50NL

I've only played with villain (CO) the past two sessions. Has been aggressive preflop with 3/4bets but I haven't seen him do anything too aggressive/unusual postflop. I've folded to his preflop aggression and I don't think we've played any big pots together. On this table I've been straightforward after the flop

110bb effective stacks

2 folds
CO raises to 1.50
1 fold
Hero (SB) 3bets to 5.00 [Qs8s]
1 fold
CO calls 3.50

Flop:

Hero cbets 5.50
CO calls 5.50

Turn:

Hero: ?


There seem to be merits to c/c turn as well as b/f turn with the intention of c/f most rivers.

If I bet the turn and get called would you bluff a diamond/K/A river?

Nobody ever believes me so I fire all three here and I'm not folding at any point. Probably even an A or K river but it's def for value.

With a very tight image I suppose b/f but don't check this turn imo.

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Nobody ever believes me so I fire all three here and I'm not folding at any point. Probably even an A or K river but it's def for value.

This seems wrong. Under the assumption that you rarely get credit you'll likely be bluffing less with bad turned gut shots or total air. Additionally it seems foolhardy to think that you are shoving A or K for value on the river especially assuming that he never folds better. I don't think it's likely that you are getting called here often enough by 88 or whatever. Especially given that villain likes to be active pre so there is a chance those hands aren't even in his range along with AQ. I think a more accurate range for villain before betting the turn is 22-88, KQ, QJs, QTs, Q9s, AJs, ATs. I'd make a decision based on how you think he plays the bottom part of his range Ax and PP. If you think he's just going to try and get to showdown then obviously bet again. I agree that it should likely be a b/f though. It's just far to difficult for him to have draws or air here compared to his value shoving range. If you think he's going to bet once and be done then c/c c/f. If you think he's going to barrel off then c/c c/c.

Originally Posted by aka_red

This seems wrong. Under the assumption that you rarely get credit you'll likely be bluffing less with bad turned gut shots or total air. Additionally it seems foolhardy to think that you are shoving A or K for value on the river especially assuming that he never folds better. I don't think it's likely that you are getting called here often enough by 88 or whatever. Especially given that villain likes to be active pre so there is a chance those hands aren't even in his range along with AQ. I think a more accurate range for villain before betting the turn is 22-88, KQ, QJs, QTs, Q9s, AJs, ATs. I'd make a decision based on how you think he plays the bottom part of his range Ax and PP. If you think he's just going to try and get to showdown then obviously bet again. I agree that it should likely be a b/f though. It's just far to difficult for him to have draws or air here compared to his value shoving range. If you think he's going to bet once and be done then c/c c/f. If you think he's going to barrel off then c/c c/c.

I'm not shoving. This is a good board for small bets and I can definitely never turn this into a bluff ever. We don't seem to know too much about his tendencies either.

Originally Posted by pocketfours

I'm not shoving. This is a good board for small bets and I can definitely never turn this into a bluff ever. We don't seem to know too much about his tendencies either.

I understand what you are trying to accomplish it just sounds like a whole lot more effort than it's worth. Additionally assuming reg is not a moron I don't know how much value there is to be had by betting small vs a small range of hands you're ahead. When getting shoved on is a non-zero probability, especially if we are unsure of how our small bets are likely to be interpreted. I would want to know how I'm going to respond before I make non standard bet sizes or lines.

Originally Posted by aka_red

I understand what you are trying to accomplish it just sounds like a whole lot more effort than it's worth. Additionally assuming reg is not a moron I don't know how much value there is to be had by betting small vs a small range of hands you're ahead. When getting shoved on is a non-zero probability, especially if we are unsure of how our small bets are likely to be interpreted. I would want to know how I'm going to respond before I make non standard bet sizes or lines.

I thought small bets are standard on this board? Besides, calling down with middle or bottom pair on this board against me is a fine play, at least with some non-zero frequency.

if your image is clean or there is no history between you and villain I'd be hard pressed to even get 2 streets of value here so probably check turn

How clean are we talking? I mean we did just 3bet Q8s oop, so either we aren't 3betting optimally or our image can't be clean as a whistle.

i have to fire all 3 here with my image

yeah actually now that I think about it more most 50nl regs will jizz their pants sometime b4 the river when they have anything that beats you...so b/f turn and shove like any river if called

P4s: I don't think I need to be 3betting an optimal range against these villains. I figured that since almost everyone at 50nl is folding too much to 3bets that I could profitably 3bet pretty much anytime the dynamic isn't terrible/my hand has some postflop playability.

I can see this is a very image dependent spot against competent opponents. Nearly all the 50nl regs at WH are actually really passive in 3bet pots without the initiative, so I can't completely rule KQ/AQ out of villain's range after getting called on two streets.

I had to do some maths on this spot. Let me know if my assumptions are unrealistic, but I think that when I get called twice I am beat around 50% of the time

Flop: Q62r
Turn: 4x
River: Ax

Villain's river range:
20%: AQ/sets
30%: Q9-KQ
50%: underpairs/missed draws (which he never turns into a bluff if I check the river)


It's definitely one of those range merging/value bluffing spots for me with my image, in my games. I can see villains folding better Qx sometimes and calling me with JJ other times. So for metagame purposes, as well as the fact that my opponents tend to play very weak on the river, shoving on K/A rivers is the best play.


I suppose shoving blank rivers is almost as good for the same reasons, though it's definitely less +EV than K/A rivers.

2nd barrel in turn and check river and re-evaluate knowing the villain

thanks for the detailed response redzilla

half pot turn check fold riv

This isn't a bad flop to check. I'm probably checking turn after I cbet, let him bluff.

Yeah I agree with all.