QQ button steal, 2/5 pounds

-villain is on several of my tables and playing pretty aggressively. he has been 3-betting me and other players quite a bit. I recently started 4-betting him from OOP on several tables and he has been folding preflop
-villain is running 25/20/3 today
-Is this line ok?

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$5
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $1509.31
Hero: $851
SB: $509
BB: $393.30

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with
UTG folds, Hero raises to $20, SB raises to $70, BB folds, Hero raises to $210, SB calls.

Flop: ($425, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($425, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks (should I bet here?)

River: ($425, 2 players)
SB is all-in $319, Hero ??[/color].

its just really hard to believe he'd call a fourbet and be bluffing here, I think he's bluffiing sometimes, but not enough to call.

i rly hate ur preflop play here. gotta 4bet to 164 or so.

as played puke and fold

Originally Posted by sauce123

i rly hate ur preflop play here. gotta 4bet to 164 or so.

as played puke and fold

Yah I agree, my 4-bet size is way too big. I should definitely make it smaller, in the very least to induce some 5-bet shoves thinking they have FE.

Do we really think that a competent player is going to be cold calling here with any hand that includes an A (besides AA) against this large of a 4 bet????

BTW I dont see why he can never be bluffing here... It's quite obvious you don't have an Ace so we're pretty much holding the top of our range.... would it be a misuse of game theory to therefore say we have to call?

Originally Posted by The Grouch

.. It's quite obvious you don't have an Ace so we're pretty much holding the top of our range.... would it be a misuse of game theory to therefore say we have to call?

I don't know if its guaranteed that I don't have an A. How should hero play AA/AK here? i'd imagine close to how I played the QQ hand. Especially considering there are pretty much no draws either.

Originally Posted by The Grouch

Do we really think that a competent player is going to be cold calling here with any hand that includes an A (besides AA) against this large of a 4 bet????

BTW I dont see why he can never be bluffing here... It's quite obvious you don't have an Ace so we're pretty much holding the top of our range.... would it be a misuse of game theory to therefore say we have to call?

Tell me a hand he is bluffing with

and I'm pretty sure you've completely blinded all poker logic by throwing around the term game theory.

Do we reckon he's ever going for thin value with JJ or so?

If you're 4betting stuff like 88 here are you taking this line?

Originally Posted by Ash256

Do we reckon he's ever going for thin value with JJ or so?

If you're 4betting stuff like 88 here are you taking this line?

I think this is one of those spots where I was 4-betting with the intention of calling a push. But being flat called kinda confused me, and I felt he must have a VERY strong hand.

If you were villain in this hand and flat called with KK, how would you play this hand?

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Tell me a hand he is bluffing with.

Um I dunno whatever random stuff donkeys cold call 4 bets oop with only to realize that the 4-bettor suddently has no interest in the pot

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

and I'm pretty sure you've completely blinded all poker logic by throwing around the term game theory.

Ha, yes i'm throwing it around. I simply asked if we can apply game theory to this situation seeing as how we are basically holding the top of our range. I'm still relying strongly on the poker knowledge that cold calling 4 bets doesnt often happen with hands like AK

Originally Posted by griffey24

[How should hero play AA/AK here? i'd imagine close to how I played the QQ hand.

Um, bet turn for sure with AK, I dont think i have a problem with checking to this point with AA.... but that is exactly 3 combos of hands u could realistically be holding that welcome a river shove

grouch- yea hes not representing a strong made hand. on the other hand, hes not representing anything at all so im not positive this argument holds. as in he already made the dubious play of cold calling a 4bet so why should we assume he wont do that with AQ AJs AJo as well as TT JJ?

I don't play these stakes but my first reaction is he was planning to stop and go but he hit the flop so he checked

Originally Posted by sauce123

as in he already made the dubious play of cold calling a 4bet so why should we assume he wont do that with AQ AJs AJo as well as TT JJ?

I agree with this.... I guess readless you should just flip a coin, no?

EDIT: RIP Sean Taylor

Originally Posted by Ash256

Do we reckon he's ever going for thin value with JJ or so?

If you're 4betting stuff like 88 here are you taking this line?

On the river he shoved KK into me. So I guess thin value with KK which happened to be good clearly, cause I called with QQ lol but in general, is this the best play with KK?

I mean clearly I think he should just push pre cause I'm calling his push all day, but once the A flops whats the best play for KK in that spot? Its hard to say cause I don't think most of us would ever get into that spot OOP in a 4-bet pot.

Originally Posted by The Grouch

Originally Posted by sauce123

as in he already made the dubious play of cold calling a 4bet so why should we assume he wont do that with AQ AJs AJo as well as TT JJ?

I agree with this.... I guess readless you should just flip a coin, no?

EDIT: RIP Sean Taylor

yea id say flip a coin, but i lean towards folding here but agree its real close.

Originally Posted by griffey24

Originally Posted by Ash256

Do we reckon he's ever going for thin value with JJ or so?

If you're 4betting stuff like 88 here are you taking this line?

On the river he shoved KK into me. So I guess thin value with KK which happened to be good clearly, cause I called with QQ lol but in general, is this the best play with KK?

I mean clearly I think he should just push pre cause I'm calling his push all day, but once the A flops whats the best play for KK in that spot? Its hard to say cause I don't think most of us would ever get into that spot OOP in a 4-bet pot.

not pushing pre here with KK is very bad

I think Villains play here is good - why not just call and let opponent overplay JJ/QQ/bluff/whatever? he played flop and turn fine by checking - He is probably not getting value from any hands and by the river he has deduced opponent is likely on QQ/JJ and gets some nice value out of it.

In my opinion just calling pre-flop with KK shows a lack of understanding of EV, mainly the value of taking down a huge pot without showdown. If opponent has a bluff (that he'd fold to a shove) then taking down $210 isn't all that much worse than getting it in as an 80% favorite (+$300 in EV). But if you just call then you're not really getting $300 because opponent won't stick it in on every flop. He might give up if he's drawing dead and he'll take a free card if he has something like 76s and flops a pair, but if he hits a Jesus flop then you're getting stacked. I wouldn't be surprised at all if KK's EV to the flop is less than $210.

With the history and that 4-bet size, hero has to call a 5-bet shove with all but the weakest of bluffing hands (ie 76s is probably a call). Since the villain is almost at the top of his 5-bet range he's losing out on alot of value versus hero's calling range by not pushing preflop. Plus he risks being bluffed off his hand postflop.

As played, I think this has to be a fold on the river. If we hold KK then I'm not sure, as he could be valuebetting QQ then? I think I like a turn shove with KK anyway, but I think I try to check it down with QQ.

I'm only worried about TT

just saw results

haha villain's play - having cold-called pre - is funny and awesome