QQ deepstacked : What do I beat?

No read on villain. Comments on all streets appreciated. Big pots without reads suck balls.


$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, September 01, 02:14:19 ET 2006

Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 4: VILLAIN ( $504.60 )
Seat 5: seapine ( $0 )
Seat 3: Malkevich ( $185.94 )
Seat 2: HaroldJ42 ( $184 )
Seat 1: HERO ( $388.05 )
VILLAIN posts small blind [$1].
HERO posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Qc Qs ]
HaroldJ42 folds.
Malkevich calls [$2].
seapine has left the table.
VILLAIN raises [$6].
HERO raises [$21].
Malkevich folds.
VILLAIN calls [$16].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, 2s, 7d ]
VILLAIN checks.
HERO bets [$34].
VILLAIN raises [$100].
HERO calls [$66].

** Dealing Turn ** [ 6s ]

VILLAIN checks.
HERO checks.

** Dealing River ** [ Jc ]

VILLAIN bets [$100].
HERO calls [$100].

I will detail my thought process later. Basically I think I played this like a donk.

You beat air, essentially. He's not committing another penny on the river w/ TT or A9. He's not making that flop raise with AJ. And if he was semi-bluffing the flop, he looks to have made his hand on the turn, so yeah, fold river.

Smooth calling a big re-raise preflop reeks of TT+/AK.
I suppose we can put any PP in here if he thinks he can stack you if he hits.

Raise on the flop makes me think same range, A9s, or set...T8 OESD possible if laggy.

Check on the turn...I don't think he can put us on the straight, and still seems unlikely he has it. I want to say he is checking to induce a call later...maybe raised on flop to get a free stab at connecting with AK?

Villain leads out on river...most likely hands are still TT+/AK and any one of the possible sets out there. Not sure about how often we need to be right...tough call, but it looks like we're beat?

I think this flop is a bet/fold. I don't see AK check raising here, unless he thinks you are bullshit. I assume he has no reads on you.
He may have JJ here. You don't beat anything reasonable by the river though.

Originally Posted by Silly String

I think this flop is a bet/fold. I don't see AK check raising here, unless he thinks you are bullshit. I assume he has no reads on you.
He may have JJ here. You don't beat anything reasonable by the river though.

Bet/folding QQ on the flop to essentially a minraise is waaay too weak-tight for my taste. He's certainly capable of making that move with TT/JJ/88/A9/T8/68. The river J and subsequent bet renders most of those hands implausible, but I don't see folding the flop just because we're scared of KK/AA.

you beat nothing on the river but whiffed AK and TT.
Cant see either of those value betting here so i think QQ no good.

Opp has KK/JJ maybe 99 too?

This might seem weak, but I think I fold this flop, because you are both deep and it looks like he wants to play for stacks (wich I wont do with QQ 200bb deep). On the flop you only beat TT, JJ and a very poorly played toppair hand. As played turn and river is fine.

Did he suck-out on you on the turn?

Originally Posted by Fnord

Did he suck-out on you on the turn?

no suck out.

He had KK and I was pretty sure I was beat.

I called because I was getting almost 4-1 and I had been reraising light (it's a bad sign that I didn't have a read on him despite being pretty active at the table...).

I seem to have trouble playing P arty because the skill of unknowns is so unpredictable. The best and worst players are always hanging around. On loose-passive-weak sites like P rima and B 2 B I almost always know where I'm at, even vs unknowns, because the play is so similar it's like playing bots.

back to the hand : from villain's perspective I am reraising light (prob 4-5 times preflop in my 20 min at table) and betting out every flop. If I consider the possibility that he's a decent player, capable of moves (which I prob shouldn't until proven otherwise...) :

1) he can put me on missed overs on the flop (I have been betting when ppl smooth call my 3 bets preflop) and want to end the hand know

2) he can have a strong hand that I beat and wants to end the hand on the flop while he's ahead (i.e. 88-1010, jj or even a lower pp is he's aggressive)

3) he has a monster and wants to play for stacks

This is why I think folding the flop (although I really, really wanted to fold...) is not necessarily all that +EV. So I call, intending to fold to a bombed turn.

His turn check means all 3 situations are still possible . I don't want to build the pot so I check behind. This, of course, also gives off weakness from his point of view.

The problem with getting to the river with this line is that I obviously still can't be sure where I'm at since I can't rule out any of the 3 scenarios I had considered. If he was playing back at me on the flop, he now has to value-bet bluff or put me on a scared hand (i.e. 1010) that will have a tough time calling a big bet.

The jack makes this a very thin call since one of the hands I was leading might have hit. Also, if he were a strong player I think I would have seen something closer to a push if he had wanted me to fold. So it was a great bet by him.
Anything 150-ish and I fold.

Btw, what do you guys think of betting the turn? In retrospect, he was prob looking to checkraise ai there... Only problem is I couldn't really have left myself with much in the tank when he pushes...

tough hand.

Captain Obvious says : "You suffer from over-analyzing your own image through the eyes of unkowns"

[quote="Genitruc"]No read on villain. Comments on all streets appreciated. Big pots without reads suck balls.


$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, September 01, 02:14:19 ET 2006

Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 4: VILLAIN ( $504.60 )
Seat 5: seapine ( $0 )
Seat 3: Malkevich ( $185.94 )
Seat 2: HaroldJ42 ( $184 )
Seat 1: HERO ( $388.05 )
VILLAIN posts small blind [$1].
HERO posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Qc Qs ]
HaroldJ42 folds.
Malkevich calls [$2].
seapine has left the table.
VILLAIN raises [$6].
HERO raises [$21].
Malkevich folds.
VILLAIN calls [$16].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, 2s, 7d ]
VILLAIN checks.
HERO bets [$34].
VILLAIN raises [$100].
HERO folds

FYP

lol ty bill u asshole

[quote="Cocco_Bill"]

Originally Posted by Genitruc

No read on villain. Comments on all streets appreciated. Big pots without reads suck balls.


$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, September 01, 02:14:19 ET 2006

Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 4: VILLAIN ( $504.60 )
Seat 5: seapine ( $0 )
Seat 3: Malkevich ( $185.94 )
Seat 2: HaroldJ42 ( $184 )
Seat 1: HERO ( $388.05 )
VILLAIN posts small blind [$1].
HERO posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Qc Qs ]
HaroldJ42 folds.
Malkevich calls [$2].
seapine has left the table.
VILLAIN raises [$6].
HERO raises [$21].
Malkevich folds.
VILLAIN calls [$16].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, 2s, 7d ]
VILLAIN checks.
HERO bets [$34].
VILLAIN raises [$100].
HERO folds

FYP

so JJ and TT wont play like this?
I think the flop and turn are ok. I think with KK you never fold this hand but with QQ you can get away. That said, when opp doesnt push the river i fold, the Jack hit JJ and imo only kk/AA value you in here.
On the other hand Id probably call a river push feeling QQ was good enough to call because it feels like opp wants me to fold.

i agree miffed river call sux. if only he bets more....

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

Originally Posted by Silly String

I think this flop is a bet/fold. I don't see AK check raising here, unless he thinks you are bullshit. I assume he has no reads on you.
He may have JJ here. You don't beat anything reasonable by the river though.

Bet/folding QQ on the flop to essentially a minraise is waaay too weak-tight for my taste. He's certainly capable of making that move with TT/JJ/88/A9/T8/68. The river J and subsequent bet renders most of those hands implausible, but I don't see folding the flop just because we're scared of KK/AA.

It wasn't a minraise at all, it was 3x, a pretty standard raise amount. There's no reason to think anything but AA/KK is raising this flop after being reraised preflop. Most people are just going to call the flop bet with JJ/TT/top pair etc. or even fold scared that you have AA/KK. Raising pretty much folds out all worse hands and is called by better hands, if villain has a clue he has this concept down.

Even if it were just a minraise, what is the point of calling? Are you calling $35 more to hit a 2 outer? Or do you really think it's likely your hand is good? This flop raise is either a bluff or a bigger pair, and I think it's rarely a bluff. The fact that we are deep makes this an even easier flop fold, how much heat can you take with this hand? And do you really want to play a big pot here when all indications point to us being behind?

how do you both get deep with no reads

Like I mentioned earlier, my first reaction was to fold the flop seeing as we were both deep. Ppl have been donking away at me with overpairs lately and I think that influenced my line.

By donking away at me I mean s hit like this :

- Playaz2 sitting in seat 1 with $117.95 [Dealer]
- pattul sitting in seat 2 with $213.00
- HERO sitting in seat 3 with $206.45
- bobby978 sitting in seat 4 with $38.00
- numb3rs sitting in seat 5 with $131.60
- VILLAIN sitting in seat 6 with $439.45

pattul posted the small blind - $1.00
HERO posted the big blind - $2.00
** Dealing card to Henitruk: Jack of Spades, Jack of Hearts
bobby978 called - $2.00
numb3rs folded
VILLAIN raised - $4.00
Playaz2 folded
pattul folded
HERO raised - $19.00
bobby978 folded
VILLAIN called - $19.00

** Dealing the flop: 9 of Clubs, 6 of Diamonds, 3 of Hearts
HERO bet - $31.00
VILLAIN raised - $62.00
HERO called - $62.00

** Dealing the turn: 9 of Spades
HERO checked
VILLAIN bet - $130.00
HERO went all-in - $127.45

** Dealing the river: 2 of Hearts
HERO shows: Jack of Spades, Jack of Hearts
brilandboy mucks:
Henitruk wins $416.90 from the main pot

It's not the best comparison since villain in this last hand was donkish. Thing is, I've just started playing on Part y and have some kind of misconception that everyone is a donk. This has led me to take marginal hands farther, even deepstacked. On p arty I always assume that unkowns tend towards donkishness.

Gotta work on that.

AISLEPHIVE SAID :

"Even if it were just a minraise, what is the point of calling? Are you calling $35 more to hit a 2 outer? Or do you really think it's likely your hand is good? This flop raise is either a bluff or a bigger pair, and I think it's rarely a bluff. The fact that we are deep makes this an even easier flop fold, how much heat can you take with this hand?"

This was the max heat I could take with this hand and even then, I felt the flop call was pretty thin.

I think it's pretty unlikely my hand is good at any point here. However I don't think it's at all impossible since I've been reraising light and it's unlikely that flop hit me if I don't have a big pair. So like I mentioned earlier I can call and fold/check behind turn or take it to showdown with the intention of calling a small value bet in the river. As played river is pretty clear fold.