QQ OOP against solid TAG and my hand is really transparent

Opp has taggy stats over a larger sample size, and seems solid. First time i 3-bet at this table. Line check please?

My thoughts on the hand: I feel my hand is very transparent by the river, if he is able to read hands he can put me squarely on JJ/QQ - how should I play this against someone who's solid? I feel if I bet somewhere here I turn my hand into a bluff basicly, which is bad because my hand has showdown value. Also, his preflop call of my big reraise was really suspicious, if he is as solid as I think he is, then I probably put him on AA/KK/AK (or QQ, but the chances of that are small).

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($114.04)
MP ($115.74)
CO ($40)
Button ($98.35)
Hero ($260.57)
BB ($112.68)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, 1 fold, Button raises to $6, Hero (poster) raises to $17.5, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP folds, Button calls $12.

Flop: ($39) T, 6, K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($39) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $25, Hero calls $25.

River: ($89) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $89

EDIT: button bet the rest of his stack on the river is around $55. I folded

bet the flop

I like your play, although I think you can call the river bet here 1/2 the time as his turn bet was pretty weak for a king.

Originally Posted by midas06

bet the flop

please elaborate, because I believe it turns my hand that has showdown value into a complete bluff - especially against this opponent.

bump for other regulars to bite!

This is pretty tough imo. I lately think about the expected cost of inducing a bluff I can't withstand versus the expected cost of betting and making your hand into a bluff (ie "seeing where you're at").

Anyway I like your line and I don't think you check/folded the best hand - based on my experience this is at least a king doing this a real high % of the time, ie ppl generally dont make big reads and bluffs, but if you have a good read on the player (more than stats) it could be different...I like the flop check, but was also thinking of leading the turn 1/2-2/3 pot, not sure though.

I often just bet the flop and shut it down from there depending on my opponent. Against a straight forward yet aggro guy like this I think I would go with that line. Particuarly since you're OOP and can't skip a street easily.

bet the flop. He isnt going to call you here unless he thinks his hand is good. Your line is ultra transparent and means you can be pushed off on almost any street.

I guess the pot is big enough to cbet and "rep" at least a K, and that's what I usually have done so far in this spot too, especially if someone is really aggro.

But lately I think vs someone that's straightforward, ie very unlikely to bluff in a big pot, you can play this a little bit slow (like c/c one time, or check flop bet turn) and get a little more value from worse hands, like a missed pocket pair or maybe AQs.

Do you guys think it's worth it to factor in how straight forward your opp is, or just always cbet in this situation?

Originally Posted by benny999

Do you guys think it's worth it to factor in how straight forward your opp is, or just always cbet in this situation?

If he is that straight-forward and he calls our reraise *and* our bet on the flop then we know we are most likely fuxxored and should shut down. That's why you bet the flop here.

So I guess this is one of the few spots in NLHE where you should "bet for information", because if he calls your flop bet you know you are beat and you can shut down. That kind of line just goes against my instincts though, because we are making a bet with a hand with showdown value that will only get called by hands that beat us. But I guess in this situation a flop bet is best anyway, because we are OOP with a ultratransparent hand.

when the pot is big compared to stack sizes it can be a good idea to bet for info. whether its QQ on Kxx or KK on Axx, betting isn't terrible and usually means less mistakes on later streets.

wow, thx guys, you are all a goldmine of poker information!

Originally Posted by Robert

wow, thx, you are a goldmine of poker information!

you're welcome

Betting the flop basically turns your hand into a bluff, where it is more than likely that your only getting called when your beat, so it doesnt really matter that you have QQ.

Also, if hes a solid TAG and thinks you have JJ/QQ, then he knows that you probably cant call a big river bet so this doesnt mean that your QQ is no good, he expects you to fold

Is there some rule that says you need at least top pair to bet for value? There is money in the pot; bet so you can win it.

Originally Posted by Toadstool

Betting the flop basically turns your hand into a bluff, where it is more than likely that your only getting called when your beat.

not really

Originally Posted by Toadstool

Betting the flop basically turns your hand into a bluff, where it is more than likely that your only getting called when your beat, so it doesnt really matter that you have QQ.

This doesn't apply on a board with this many possible draws.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Is there some rule that says you need at least top pair to bet for value? There is money in the pot; bet so you can win it.

Yeah, but it's hard to vaule bet thin when there are more 2 streets left in a big pot offering you some terrible reverse implied odds.

I don't have a problem turning our hand into 72o here. Quite often the first guy into the pot is going to win this one. I also think it's important to establish follow-through for all of those times you don't really want to follow-through.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Is there some rule that says you need at least top pair to bet for value? There is money in the pot; bet so you can win it.

no, you're right, against a straight-forward opponent who will let us know *exactly* where we stamd -- lets just check-call the entire way because we have a really great hand OMFG QQ is awesome on a K-high board woot-woot call down the entire way it's so PRETTY weeeeee!

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Originally Posted by Toadstool

Betting the flop basically turns your hand into a bluff, where it is more than likely that your only getting called when your beat, so it doesnt really matter that you have QQ.

This doesn't apply on a board with this many possible draws.

very true, my mistake, I think the best line is to bet the flop, he could call with QJ/2 spades/Kx - he will raise here is he has a monster ie. 2 pair or a set as he knows the draws completing could kill his action and you can safely fold, if you get called on the flop, re-evaluate the turn depending on what comes up, checking and then attempting to deduce what he has by bet size and speed is probably the best play

In a re-raised heads-up pot, you need to seriously discount the chances he's on a draw.

If you have AA/KK or AK and the flop has the FD, how do you play? Do you slowplay on this board? I don't. I'm potting it to rep either AA/KK or AK and folding to a shove or a substantial raise if I don't actually have that hand. In place of that, you have to lead this blank turn. You basically gave the pot away. Opp only called your re-raise preflop. With your massive stack he has all kinds of implied odds to call your raise with any PP or other AA cracking hand hoping you stack off to his hidden set or straight. Put him to the test and see where you are.

In my opinion not c-betting any pot that you re-raised preflop is a mistake in my opinion no matter what the board is. You repped strength preflop, force him to find a big hand to play back at you with. By checking the flop and calling the turn you're giving him every opportunity to win this pot with the worst hand.
As played you have to fold the river.

Originally Posted by Ravageur

In my opinion not c-betting any pot that you re-raised preflop is a mistake in my opinion no matter what the board is.

I don't agree with this at all.

if you always cbet you are exploitable

I think in this hand betting flop is about the same or maybe better than checking since we can't be sure if this villain would only bluff one time with JJ or something. But it seems like a few ppl aren't considering checking possibly being a better play, so thought I'd say why I think it can be again in a clearer way.

The key thing is (I think) most tight 100nlers only take one stab at the pot with 99-JJ...even when hero checks all three streets. If that's the case you win a larger pot by checking the flop, and feining weakness shouldn't matter if it will win more money.

Originally Posted by Ravageur

In my opinion not c-betting any pot that you re-raised preflop is a mistake in my opinion no matter what the board is. You repped strength preflop, force him to find a big hand to play back at you with. By checking the flop and calling the turn you're giving him every opportunity to win this pot with the worst hand.
As played you have to fold the river.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, and I'm not saying either that you are wrong in regard to this specific hand that I posted - but your general thinking is flawed and is a leak.

Originally Posted by benny999

I think in this hand betting flop is about the same or maybe better than checking since we can't be sure if this villain would only bluff one time with JJ or something. But it seems like a few ppl aren't considering checking possibly being a better play, so thought I'd say why I think it can be again in a clearer way.

The key thing is (I think) most tight 100nlers only take one stab at the pot with 99-JJ...even when hero checks all three streets. If that's the case you win a larger pot by checking the flop, and feining weakness shouldn't matter if it will win more money.

This was my thinking too, thx for clarifying benny

Originally Posted by benny999

I think in this hand betting flop is about the same or maybe better than checking since we can't be sure if this villain would only bluff one time with JJ or something. But it seems like a few ppl aren't considering checking possibly being a better play, so thought I'd say why I think it can be again in a clearer way.

The key thing is (I think) most tight 100nlers only take one stab at the pot with 99-JJ...even when hero checks all three streets. If that's the case you win a larger pot by checking the flop, and feining weakness shouldn't matter if it will win more money.

What about checking the flop with the intention of betting the turn if it's checked behind? I like that line better than it's played, especially since we called the turn bet anyway. At least we have some FE if we lead that blank turn and may get a free river. If we are raised AI we can get away and know we were beat.

Originally Posted by Thee One

Originally Posted by benny999

I think in this hand betting flop is about the same or maybe better than checking since we can't be sure if this villain would only bluff one time with JJ or something. But it seems like a few ppl aren't considering checking possibly being a better play, so thought I'd say why I think it can be again in a clearer way.

The key thing is (I think) most tight 100nlers only take one stab at the pot with 99-JJ...even when hero checks all three streets. If that's the case you win a larger pot by checking the flop, and feining weakness shouldn't matter if it will win more money.

What about checking the flop with the intention of betting the turn if it's checked behind? I like that line better than it's played, especially since we called the turn bet anyway. At least we have some FE if we lead that blank turn and may get a free river. If we are raised AI we can get away and know we were beat.

If we wanted folding equity, why wouldn't we bet the flop?

The whole idea of checking here is to maximize value with a marginal hand that you want to take to showdown. There seems to be some confusion on when it is okay to check with an overcard as opposed to betting.

Originally Posted by gabe

if you always cbet you are exploitable

Even when you RE-raise? I don't mean normally raised pots, but when I re-raise preflop I am c-betting 100% of the time because of the likelihood they are simply set hunting and will fold if they don't hit their 2 outer.

Originally Posted by Robert

Originally Posted by Ravageur

In my opinion not c-betting any pot that you re-raised preflop is a mistake in my opinion no matter what the board is. You repped strength preflop, force him to find a big hand to play back at you with. By checking the flop and calling the turn you're giving him every opportunity to win this pot with the worst hand.
As played you have to fold the river.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, and I'm not saying either that you are wrong in regard to this specific hand that I posted - but your general thinking is flawed and is a leak.

No offense taken, I'm quite willing to rethink my way of playing etc..

But anyway, back to your hand. I just think that c-betting makes the hand easier for you to play instead of playing it in the dark basically by check/calling and getting no info whatsoever. This is just my $0.02, but c-bet/fold to a raise/slow down if called is better than check/calling away a bunch of chips when you haven't put any pressure on your opponent.

Hmm...now back to our previous comment. Why is it a leak? Gabe says it's exploitable, but I'm not sure I see why. I follow the basic Supersystem style of almost always c-betting pots that I have taken control of. Obviously it's important to be able to change gears and mix up your play, but is that necessary in this situation? Seems to me like you're just telling your opponent 'I have JJ/QQ and can't take any heat'.

Originally Posted by Ravageur

Hmm...now back to our previous comment. Why is it a leak? Gabe says it's exploitable, but I'm not sure I see why. I follow the basic Supersystem style of almost always c-betting pots that I have taken control of. Obviously it's important to be able to change gears and mix up your play, but is that necessary in this situation? Seems to me like you're just telling your opponent 'I have JJ/QQ and can't take any heat'.

Cuz an observant player will start to play passive knowing they will get a flop bet out of you. Maybe even floating to see if your aggression will continue, then if they sense weakness take it down on a later street.

You have a wide variety of options if you want to exploit someone who raises and continuation bets too much. You can re-raise them preflop, call pre-flop and lead the flop into them, check-raise the flop, or just call their flop bet and either check-raise the turn or bet the river if they check behind on the turn. You have to make sure to do all of these things with a real hand sometimes, but the more often a person is continuation betting with nothing, the more often you can make all of these moves with not much of a hand.

Since I'm taking a break from playing, I've been doing some thinking about just how often I want to make these moves against the crappy TAGs who don't know how to do anything other than raise the button and bet the flop. In the past I've gotten into the habit of re-raising too much pre-flop and not playing back at them enough in other ways, and I'm going to add some more balance. I want to come back in a couple of weeks and just run over those one-trick ponies.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by Ravageur

Hmm...now back to our previous comment. Why is it a leak? Gabe says it's exploitable, but I'm not sure I see why. I follow the basic Supersystem style of almost always c-betting pots that I have taken control of. Obviously it's important to be able to change gears and mix up your play, but is that necessary in this situation? Seems to me like you're just telling your opponent 'I have JJ/QQ and can't take any heat'.

Cuz an observant player will start to play passive knowing they will get a flop bet out of you. Maybe even floating to see if your aggression will continue, then if they sense weakness take it down on a later street.

Thus the value of the second/third barrel. I guess this just comes down to if you want to adopt a very high variance style of play. I do

Originally Posted by mcatdog

You have a wide variety of options if you want to exploit someone who raises and continuation bets too much. You can re-raise them preflop, call pre-flop and lead the flop into them, check-raise the flop, or just call their flop bet and either check-raise the turn or bet the river if they check behind on the turn. You have to make sure to do all of these things with a real hand sometimes, but the more often a person is continuation betting with nothing, the more often you can make all of these moves with not much of a hand.

Since I'm taking a break from playing, I've been doing some thinking about just how often I want to make these moves against the crappy TAGs who don't know how to do anything other than raise the button and bet the flop. In the past I've gotten into the habit of re-raising too much pre-flop and not playing back at them enough in other ways, and I'm going to add some more balance. I want to come back in a couple of weeks and just run over those one-trick ponies.

I don't think it's exploitable if the c-better mixes his play up as well and 3-bets your c/r with air and fires on the turn and river based on a read that said villain is often floating in such a situation. Donk leading the flop and turn can be bad into any kind of strong player in my opinion unless you do this with sets and two pair just as often. It's an interesting discussion most definitely. I know what works for me, but I'm trying to understand 'why' it works for me and if it could be working better.

I'm convinced however that when I'm playing my best I'm c-betting as many pots as I can and picking off floaters...but I guess that's just running good. Check/folding just doesn't seem like an option to me unless it's a multi-way pot or if i'm not the preflop raiser. I do of course fold to the odd donk lead if I have a maniacal table image and I think that villain is hoping I donkraise his donklead.

Anyway I've hijacked this thread enough so I'll drop the subject and concess that you guys are all probably right and I need to slowdown and c/c some flops.

Block bet on turn for $15. Value bet $25 river. fold to resistance.

Originally Posted by gabe

if you always cbet you are exploitable

Online in a 100NL game, hero doesn't have to worry much.

I think mixing it up is more important in routine raised pots.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

There seems to be some confusion on when it is okay to check with an overcard as opposed to betting.

I agree, can you explain please?

Ravageur, against some opponents in some situations you get more value out of checking the flop instead of c-betting when you RR preflop - and this applies both to QQ and AA on a K-high flop under the right circumstances.
I agree though that in this specific hand I probably need to c-bet this flop because it makes my hand a lot easier to play and because else my hand is really transparent against a solid hand reader who can put me on JJ/QQ.

Originally Posted by Thee One

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

There seems to be some confusion on when it is okay to check with an overcard as opposed to betting.

I agree, can you explain please?

If only I could...

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Originally Posted by Thee One

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

There seems to be some confusion on when it is okay to check with an overcard as opposed to betting.

I agree, can you explain please?

If only I could...

It's about etimating the ratio of times you think he already has a better hand versus the chance that he has a worse hand and could draw out with a free card.