QQ - Weak but ok fold with heavy reverse implied odds?

Villain is new to me but all 4 of my tables are playing pretty tight at the moment.

I dont want to raise this and any turn card will scare me. The fold felt really weak but what do you think?

I also usually cbet $7 or $8 here. Not sure why I bet 6. maybe it was a typo.

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with Q Q
UTG calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero raises to $4, UTG folds, Button calls, SB folds.

Flop: 6 7 T ($10, 2 players)
Hero bets $6, Button raises to $21, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $15 returned to Button.

Results:
Final pot: $22

Yeah, it feels weak, but the board is pretty horrible, and he's indicating he's prepared to play for stacks. I'd fold, make a note of his raise, and move on to the next hand.

How much behind? I usually 3-bet here, but it's either that or fold, calling is terrible.

Raise to 6 or 7 pre. You don't want ten callers with any hand in the BB. You are lucky you got isolation.

As played, good fold. You're either racing or f**ked.

Stacks?
Read?
Have you shown down a hand recently? If so, what was it?

Without any other info, I'm reraising here. Button has a very wide range here, and he may be checking to see if you have AK that missed.

Your preflop raise sucks, BTW. I'd pop it to $8, maybe $10. You have a great hand preflop, but will likely be playing from out of position, so you need to press your edge while you have it and make any cute plays like the one you are facing here become very expensive for your opponents. It's also a good idea to make this raise with total garbage on occasion balance your play. I wouldn't make it with a hand that cain gain a lot of value easily by seeing a flop like small pairs and small suited connectors.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Your preflop raise sucks, BTW. I'd pop it to $8, maybe $10.

Are you joking? A 10BB raise? Anyway, who likes to minraise it back to him here?..

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Your preflop raise sucks, BTW. I'd pop it to $8, maybe $10.

Are you joking? A 10BB raise? Anyway, who likes to minraise it back to him here?..

Whoops, I miscalculated a pot sized raise - it's $5, (thought it was $7 for some reason). I'm often raising more than pot because I'm playing the rest of the hand out of position, so yeah, maybe raise to $6 or $7.

Taking this pot down preflop isn't a terrible result.

do you think hes limped a hand that has you beat here, behind only one caller?
hmmm, got to say im tempted to reraise here and call a shove.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

I'm often raising more than pot because I'm playing the rest of the hand out of position, so yeah, maybe raise to $6 or $7.

I see this reasoning a fair amount, but I disagree with it and do the opposite. I raise a little less than normal when I know I'll be playing the hand oop, because I don't want to build a pot in poor position. I understand you don't mind taking it down pre-flop, but with 100BB eff stacks, I don't think most players are folding pre-flop b/c of an extra 2BB. And a good player knows they can afford to call bigger raises in position. If you get two or three callers, or the flop comes down like this, you're glad the pot is smaller. Obviously it's table/player specific, but with no reads, I like a raise smaller than 4xbb+1bb/limper here. I'd make it $5.

I raise a tad more only if there are more limpers just so I can cut it down to 1-2 people. I am tempted often to raise more with my bigger hands preflop, but people really pick up on this, I can tell from how they react preflop. Also, when I see this from other people I figure the bigger raises are bigger hands too. Like I saw this standard guy suddenly open for 6bb.. said to myself "obvious AA" and was right.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($125.40)
CO ($98)
Button ($98)
SB ($33.53)
BB ($229.56)
UTG ($76.92)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q, Q. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, Hero raises to $4, 4 folds, UTG calls $3.

Flop: ($9.50) 4, 7, J (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $7, UTG raises to $21, Hero calls $125.40 (All-In), UTG calls $76.92 (All-In).

Turn: ($239.82) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($239.82) 8 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $239.82

Results:
UTG has 3c Jc (one pair, jacks).
Hero has Qd Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $239.82.

Originally Posted by zook

Originally Posted by koolmoe

I'm often raising more than pot because I'm playing the rest of the hand out of position, so yeah, maybe raise to $6 or $7.

I see this reasoning a fair amount, but I disagree with it and do the opposite. I raise a little less than normal when I know I'll be playing the hand oop, because I don't want to build a pot in poor position.

This is silly. What happens when you have 92o and you want to pick up the pot? You gonna make a small raise and get 2 or 3 callers?

Raising more when you are likely ahead or even crushing your opponents is always a solid play. BTW, raising a small amount = building a pot since you'll often get more than 1 caller as the pot odds + implied odds should be irresistable to your opponents. Building a pot with a strong hand that you might have trouble getting away from and that plays very poorly OOP is just bad poker.

Originally Posted by jackvance

I raise a tad more only if there are more limpers just so I can cut it down to 1-2 people. I am tempted often to raise more with my bigger hands preflop, but people really pick up on this, I can tell from how they react preflop. Also, when I see this from other people I figure the bigger raises are bigger hands too. Like I saw this standard guy suddenly open for 6bb.. said to myself "obvious AA" and was right.

The idea isn't to raise more because you have a big hand. You raise more because there are limpers (so the pot is bigger) and - most importantly - you are OOP. I would raise the same amount with any hand that I chose to raise in that spot, be it AA or 23o.

You need to raise occasionally with other hands besides your big pairs to balance your strategy and protect your big pairs from guys taking shots at you because they know what you hold. IMO, you do that most effectively by raising a wider range, not by raising less to disguise the strength of your hand.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

This is silly. What happens when you have 92o and you want to pick up the pot? You gonna make a small raise and get 2 or 3 callers?

Raising more when you are likely ahead or even crushing your opponents is always a solid play. BTW, raising a small amount = building a pot since you'll often get more than 1 caller as the pot odds + implied odds should be irresistable to your opponents. Building a pot with a strong hand that you might have trouble getting away from and that plays very poorly OOP is just bad poker.

I don't usually try to pick up pots from the BB with 92o when there have been 3 limpers, but yeah, if the table's loose you might want to make a bigger bet for that.

If you really think that $6 or $7 is going to thin the field that much more than $5, then it's fine, that's just not my experience. Since I read Theory & Practice where Sklansky advocates generally larger raises in late position and smaller ones in early position, I've been raising my normal 4xbb+1bb/limper late and slightly less in EP. I vary based on table texture, but it's been working well and I've avoided a lot of difficult big pot situations oop post-flop. I'll agree to disagree, but I hardly think it's silly.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($125.40)
CO ($98)
Button ($98)
SB ($33.53)
BB ($229.56)
UTG ($76.92)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q, Q. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, Hero raises to $4, 4 folds, UTG calls $3.

Flop: ($9.50) 4, 7, J (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $7, UTG raises to $21, Hero calls $125.40 (All-In), UTG calls $76.92 (All-In).

Turn: ($239.82) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($239.82) 8 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $239.82

Results:
UTG has 3c Jc (one pair, jacks).
Hero has Qd Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins $239.82.

This is an auto call simply because opp hasnt bought in for 100bbs and hence we are probably correct to assume he sucks.

Originally Posted by zook

I don't usually try to pick up pots from the BB with 92o when there have been 3 limpers, but yeah, if the table's loose you might want to make a bigger bet for that.

Why wouldn't you bluff raise occasionally there? It's a great spot for a steal.

If you vary your raise in that spot, I think you are leaking information.

Originally Posted by zook

If you really think that $6 or $7 is going to thin the field that much more than $5, then it's fine, that's just not my experience.

This POV makes no sense. You've almost always got the best hand, so even (especially if?) if you think that raising to $7 thins the field no more than raising $5, why wouldn't you get more money in with the best hand? You would win more when you win and cut down on implied odds.

You need to be careful that you aren't raising less just to give yourself an excuse postflop to make a weak fold. It's not the end of the world to get stacked with an overpair.

Originally Posted by zook

Since I read Theory & Practice where Sklansky advocates generally larger raises in late position and smaller ones in early position, I've been raising my normal 4xbb+1bb/limper late and slightly less in EP. I vary based on table texture, but it's been working well and I've avoided a lot of difficult big pot situations oop post-flop. I'll agree to disagree, but I hardly think it's silly.

IIRC, when Sklansky talks about raising less from EP, he's talking about opening the pot and in the context of full ring, where there is a good chance that someone will wake up with a big hand behind you. This makes sense if your opponents will respect your raise from EP more than they would respect a late position open since you will have better options when you are reraised. This is an entirely different situation.

Points taken, koolmoe. I do play mostly full-ring, and I think you're right that Sklansky is talking about opening, not this situation where you're playing from the BB with two limpers in front. You've convinced me.

raise more pre. i like raising more than pot size because you are out of position, and being out of position sucks.

flop is fine