ship it holla (no content, doesn't belong here)

PokerStars Game #8646070466: Hold'em No Limit ($5/$10) - 2007/02/27 - 00:10:31 (ET)
Table 'Elephenor V' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: kerpowski ($1174.85 in chips)
Seat 2: BigTic ($2956.25 in chips)
Seat 3: GC2821 ($970 in chips)
Seat 4: Lukieplaya ($1078 in chips)
kerpowski: posts small blind $5
BigTic: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lukieplaya [Ts Th]
GC2821: folds
Lukieplaya: raises $30 to $40
kerpowski: folds
BigTic: raises $100 to $140
Lukieplaya: raises $938 to $1078 and is all-in
BigTic: calls $938
*** FLOP *** [9s 6s 8d]
*** TURN *** [9s 6s 8d] [Qs]
*** RIVER *** [9s 6s 8d Qs] [2s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BigTic: shows [Td Tc] (a pair of Tens)
Lukieplaya: shows [Ts Th] (a flush, Queen high)
Lukieplaya collected $2159 from pot

ha!

this goes in the pwnage thread

Originally Posted by gabe

this goes in the pwnage thread

you right but I didn't see that one without scrolling down so I just made a new thread.

uhhhhhhhhhh

so now that the hand is here,

assuming regular table dynamics and nobody is getting crazy,

what does everyone think of my 4-bet shove?

what does everyone think of his call of my 4-bet shove?

ignore results, and there's absolutely no right answer

I think your shove is pretty terrible, you're going to get wtf pwned by JJ+ and flip with AK/AQ but rarely if ever get it in against 99 or something.

His call is pretty bad too I think, but I think your shove is worse.

Nice hand though.

Originally Posted by aislephive

I think your shove is pretty terrible, you're going to get wtf pwned by JJ+ and flip with AK/AQ but rarely if ever get it in against 99 or something.

His call is pretty bad too I think, but I think your shove is worse.

Nice hand though.

It's interesting/nice to have some outside analysis like this.

I think it's a good call by him. If he folds TT here I'm going to run all over him (read: I'm going to spew everywhere until he eventually finds a massive edge with KK/AA, but nonetheless, I've been known to shove some pretty speculative hands here so I think it's a good call).

I'm not sure what I think about my shove. My only concern is that I think I'm clearly +EV seeing a flop here and shoving destroys that. So even if this shove is +EV (which I think it is, but that is certainly debatable), it might still have a lower EV then calling and seeing a flop. Even 4-betting to a lesser amount might still be better (again, debatable).

further discussion please!

btw, GREAT for lukieplayametagame (the hand, not the thread, I'd post on 2p2 if I wanted publicity )

his call is worse than your shove. Obviously if he wants to flip with JJ/AK/QQ cool but calling the shove with TT is plain wrong IMO.
Sure the games aggro, but not enough for that call to be good enough of the time.

Since Lee flipped my Doom switch, I'm certain that I would be on the other end of it this month.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

his call is worse than your shove. Obviously if he wants to flip with JJ/AK/QQ cool but calling the shove with TT is plain wrong IMO.
Sure the games aggro, but not enough for that call to be good enough of the time.

hmm, I actually want to go into this a little further. I am opening a lot of hands on the button here with 2 taggs on my left. SB folds and Villain against my range) is +EV calling and +EV 3-betting, no doubt. I'll go on record as saying he made a pretty ideal play.

Now back to me. Assuming that I know the BB is a good player and that he's adapting (part of the adaption is knowing that he can profitably 3-bet a lot of hands back at me). I'm certainly not shoving if I think he has a range of JJ+/AK and he's calling a shove with all of those, that's dumb.

Let's put it this way, I've thought a LOT about the best plays in these situations. With any given hand, I can fold, call, 4-bet small, 4-bet a committing amount, or 4-bet shove (keeping it simple here).

There's so many things that go into my decision when it's close, obviously I'm folding 74o here and anything I do with the monster pairs is going to be profitable. It's the marginal, close decisions that really interest me. I'm not going to go into ranges or deep into my thought process but I've thought about it a lot. I could probably write a book on it.

Let's look at his decision because it's much simpler then mine. It's either call or fold, he needs to call 938 into what will be a pot of 2159, or he needs approximately 43% equity. I will go on record as saying this is a call for him. If I'm shoving AA/KK/AK, it's a small mistake to call. Add QQ to that range and it's a slightly bigger mistake. Subtract QQ and weight the range towards AK a bit and it's either close or correct to call. Add the odd small pair or Axs and it's a call. I'm in a situation where I can manipulate my range into him making a mistake in these situations. I think when it's close like this, it's better to call. Metagame should take precedence over variance in my book.

My shove? meh, maybe I'll get back to that. Truthfully, 99/88 does call me here sometimes but against your player that won't, it's about the same as shoving 22. Only difference is TT would usually be +EV calling and 22 not so much.