standard enough nl100 hand? fd on flop

Holdem No Limit - $1 BB

CO ($177.12) [phantom_lord]
Button ($97)
SB ($42.49)
BB ($174.03)
UTG ($131.25)

phantom_lord is CO with Q, K
Preflop: (5 players, $1.5)
UTG calls $1 and raises $2, phantom_lord calls $3, Button calls $3, SB calls $2.50, BB calls $2

Flop: 5, 7, 8 (5 players, $15)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets $25, phantom_lord calls $25 and raises $50, 3 folds, UTG calls $50 and raises $53.25 and is All-In, phantom_lord calls $53.25

Turn: T ($271.5)

River: 6 ($271.5)

Results: phantom_lord has Q, K
UTG has Q, Q
phantom_lord wins $268.5 with Flush KQT87


his coments were:

utg: WHAT A ***** DONKEY
miker0486: that was unlucky too
utg: ARE YOU REALLY THAT BAD
utg: HOW DO YOU PUT THAT MUCH MONEY IN ON A DRAW
utg: ***** INCREDIBLE
utg: be right back
utg: im going to rape this donk
utg: im sorry anybody that puts 130.00 in a pot on a flush draw is horrible
utg: im going to take his whole stack
Strag: nahhhh
phantom_lord: lol
utg: a 30 call is different than a 130 call

I dont like that, since there's little/no chance utg will fold on the flop so your just scaring away potential callers by raising.
and not to be result oriented, but it looks like you could have stacked him by calling. folding wouldn't really be bad either.
btw, it helps if u remove the rest of the stuff after the main decision, so ppl dont have results influencing their reply.

this is a fold most of the time without some odd read.

I might be wrong, but he is getting 4.1:1 on the call (for the last $53.25), so I don't think THAT is so bad--isn't the FD about that to come in? UTGs initial overbet of the pot says he wants to win right there and that he doesn't want a call. Mathtematically, calling (or raising) the first overbet seems to be the mistake here. I can't think you stack him if you smooth call and hit. Not with the overbet saying he's vulnerable. So it comes down to push or fold and I think folding is better.

i fold this w/ only a FD.

cardsman: I think everyone's saying fold to the $25 flop overbet. Because once villain pushes hero's getting 4:1 to call and is only a 1.6:1 dog to an overpair, so that's as easy as it gets.

I fold to the flop overbet, without some weird read that he over c-bets whiffed flops multiway. Raising/pushing flush draws depends on fold equity and it doesn't look like you have any.

if i knew he had QQ this is close but this is probably part of the bottom of this guys range.

Hot Cards > Hot Play

Think through post-flop. You stuck how much money into the pot post-flop to win how much money?

it's o.k. but not spectacular or anything since villain usually shows up with a big pair here. Most likely are AA/JJ because of your cards.

You're never gonna be way ahead but almost never be way behind either and this will give you a gambly image so I don't mind it.

It's bad because

a) you're behind UTG and he's not folding

b) there's little invested and a lot behind

c) if you get two callers you could be drawing stone dead

fold to flop bet or raise all/in to maximize FE (sometimes, against nitty opps) If you get called, suck out, then do the same when you flop straight.

Originally Posted by zenbitz

fold to flop bet or raise all/in to maximize FE

Against your opponent's range and flop over-bet I really like the min-raise here and think it's a far stronger play than a shove for a lot of reasons.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by zenbitz

fold to flop bet or raise all/in to maximize FE

Against your opponent's range and flop over-bet I really like the min-raise here and think it's a far stronger play than a shove for a lot of reasons.

agree, now find someone who isn't a total idiot to make FE-based plays against; good play vs decent opponents

also, chat is funny

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by zenbitz

fold to flop bet or raise all/in to maximize FE

Against your opponent's range and flop over-bet I really like the min-raise here and think it's a far stronger play than a shove for a lot of reasons.

I may be clouded by the post-read effect that he will happily get it all in with QQ on this flop. You min/raise and he shoves, you fold?

Originally Posted by zenbitz

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by zenbitz

fold to flop bet or raise all/in to maximize FE

Against your opponent's range and flop over-bet I really like the min-raise here and think it's a far stronger play than a shove for a lot of reasons.

I may be clouded by the post-read effect that he will happily get it all in with QQ on this flop. You min/raise and he shoves, you fold?

If you min raise and he pushes the pot would be

$15+25+50+25+78= $193
You would have to call $78 into $193. You need 2:1 to call here so the math says yes.

Huh?!?!?

Yes, you make a crying call of the shove.

How about preflop? I would bet $10 and fold if UTG raises. If UTG just calls then flop could be easier to play.

Whether or not you fold or raise to the overbet is read dependent. It does look like a scared bet so maybe. If you decide to raise then I agree that a minraise is a stronger looking raise than a push since it looks like you want callers. I really dont think youre folding anything better than JJ here against most players at these stakes. I would have thought a crying call with QQ would be the norm.

I think everyone is thinking at least 1 level deeper than me.

You have a non-nut f/d on drawy board. Villian over-bets. To me, he is "protecting his hand from draws". Either you should fold (because you are sure he will call any raise, and your implied/pot odds are not there), or raise to get him to fold.

I can see that a non all/in raise may spook a thinking player... but not into folding. Ah! Maybe you get a free card on the turn? Kinda turns your hand face up though.

he has overcards and pot odds are too good to fold.