Tables filled with TAGs

I was wondering, conceptually, how you can get an edge on tables filled with TAGs. On tables with preflop loose players, you basically can get an edge by playing tighter than them, so your edge lies in the fact that your range is ahead of theirs when going to the flop. On tables with player who are relatively tight preflop and weak/tight post-flop, you can gain an edge by simply stealing a lot, both preflop and postflop.

But if they're all TAGs.. if you raise loose, ultimately your edge isn't in stealing because their calling range owns your raising range. And postflop you can't gain much of an edge either, because the TAGs won't be folding constantly, they will attack weakness, slowplay their strong hands when you show aggression, raise you or call you down when they don't believe you, etc. Also, almost no hand will get checked down, as there's always someone taking a stab at the pot.

I'd like to hear opinions how to beat those games, ie where you can gain an edge.

Beat them with superior table selection.

Most "TAGs" suck. I play bigger than you and here are the little gems I see in my game.

o Guys who raise pre-flop and ALWAYS bet the flop, but shutdown when called and almost always fold to a check/raise. (how often have you posted "bet and fold to resistance?")

o Obvious flop c-bet lines. Will bet like around 1/2 pot with nothing, but kick it up when they really have the goods.

o Tipping hands on the second barrel. Make repeat and smaller bets when they have air.

o Don't challenge c-bets against them often enough.

o Don't play their blinds often enough because they're running too many tables. Insta-profit here if you just give them a little gut check 3x bb raise. Shut down on the flop unless you hit big. That really confuses them.

o Play fairly well, but don't bet big enough, often enough. You always know you can get a reasonably priced showdown against them, allowing you to hang in there with lukewarm hands, then grill them for real value when you improve.

Of course a lot of this crap doesn't get picked up by the HUD-bots.

Once you start exploiting their weak, predictable behavior, you will get more action and most will eventually adjust. So don't be too obvious about what you're doing and shift it way back into low gear if you've just given a lot of action because you're gonna get paid-off by the guy who's trying to play well and is starting to think something is up.

BTW: A whole lot of you owe me a drink and don't think I won't collect...

I owe you far more than one drink, sir.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Beat them with superior table selection.

I dunno, I find it an interesting experience to have tables that don't have any obvious loose fish or weak-tight calling stations to exploit. A challenge.

@Fnord: thx for the advice. I guess I'm just not in the mental capacity to do accurate board/range/line reads atm.

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by Warpe

Beat them with superior table selection.

I dunno, I find it an interesting experience to have tables that don't have any obvious loose fish or weak-tight calling stations to exploit. A challenge.

@Fnord: thx for the advice. I guess I'm just not in the mental capacity to do accurate board/range/line reads atm.

I was only half-kidding. As you move up in stakes, 200nl< imo, the field improves and your edge lessens until it's you and a bunch of relatively comparable players fighting over the one or two donators at the table. If there are no donators, you have to question why you're at the table. Personally, I enjoy playing against good players for the same reason you do - the challenge - and I find it makes my game sharper. But I enjoy it most when there's somebody at least covering the rake.

There is at least one "sTAgg" I love to see at my table. I just float/re-raise/check-raise him every 3rd or so time he raises and it's free money.

After running at 20-30 ptBB/100 for a few days, today was quite a downer. But it has given some food for thought.

abuse position against TAGs and theres nothing they can do about it.

fnord, ill be in vegas january '08. if you make the trip i promise a drink or three.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Most "TAGs" suck. I play bigger than you and here are the little gems I see in my game.

o Guys who raise pre-flop and ALWAYS bet the flop, but shutdown when called and almost always fold to a check/raise. (how often have you posted "bet and fold to resistance?")

o Obvious flop c-bet lines. Will bet like around 1/2 pot with nothing, but kick it up when they really have the goods.

o Tipping hands on the second barrel. Make repeat and smaller bets when they have air.

o Don't challenge c-bets against them often enough.

o Don't play their blinds often enough because they're running too many tables. Insta-profit here if you just give them a little gut check 3x bb raise. Shut down on the flop unless you hit big. That really confuses them.

o Play fairly well, but don't bet big enough, often enough. You always know you can get a reasonably priced showdown against them, allowing you to hang in there with lukewarm hands, then grill them for real value when you improve.

Of course a lot of this crap doesn't get picked up by the HUD-bots.

Once you start exploiting their weak, predictable behavior, you will get more action and most will eventually adjust. So don't be too obvious about what you're doing and shift it way back into low gear if you've just given a lot of action because you're gonna get paid-off by the guy who's trying to play well and is starting to think something is up.

BTW: A whole lot of you owe me a drink and don't think I won't collect...

If i ever get my pale brit ass across the pond ill buy the first round.
I figured all this out after playing 100nl and 200nl on stars versus the party or tribeca games id been used to playing. Stars players are like robots, and a lot of TAGGY wanabe players are exactly the same.

So how do you guys reccommend an 8-tabling tag who fits into the weak tag category work on improving this without dropping tables?

Fnord that is some excellent shiz. If you ever come down under drinks are on me.

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

So how do you guys reccommend an 8-tabling tag who fits into the weak tag category work on improving this without dropping tables?

i asked renton the other day in IRC if he ever opened in MP1 with 78s in MP1.
He said no.

IMO, you dont need to make opening with 78s in MP1 a normal play, but you do need to do it every so often to make whatever game you are playing a little less predictable.
6max players cant be predicatable simply because you can open from the HJ/CO/Button with any two cards in order to encourage action.
I still dont play more than 6tables either, apart from when i play fr on stars where i obviously play 9+ against the predictable robots.
But i dont think it matters much if you are able to make money at any stakes, say 3bbs/100 or watnot.

I open raise all SCs and PPs from all positions and limp if there are limpers ahead of me. When I am the PFR'er, I make cbets 100% of the time and for the most part give up when I whiff or only get something like 3rd pair and hit any resistance.

When I hit the flop, no matter how hard, I throw out the usual c-bet and then about half the time I'll check raise the turn with whatever good hand I have. Hopefully this mixes it up enough to keep the floaters off balance. If I'm missing a lot of flops though there's not much I can do to fight back.

Standard?

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

I open raise all SCs from all positions

I have mixed feelings about this and have recently demoted them down to a "sometimes raise" from UTG/MP and "usually raise" from CO/BN.

It depends on how the table is playing. If I think I'm going to have to show someone a hand, they hit the muck because I'm going to really want high card power and/or something that can beat a bust hand on the river.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

I open raise all SCs from all positions

I have mixed feelings about this and have recently demoted them down to a "sometimes raise" from UTG/MP and "usually raise" from CO/BN.

It depends on how the table is playing. If I think I'm going to have to show someone a hand, they hit the muck because I'm going to really want high card power and/or something that can beat a bust hand on the river.

At Party Poker, I used to think the same thing as well. But Stars is a whole different story. If I find that my UTG raises are getting floated/reraised I'll just find another table. You don't get 87s or other suited connectors enough in EP to only raise 'sometimes' and have it really be effective. I would much rather raise a hand like 87s than KJo UTG though, and I'm sure you feel the same way.

Even while 8 tabling I am able to tell specific players on specific tables and, after 3-4 reloads of my cbets not working, I won't stay long. Granted, this is just a shortterm solution to a long term problem, but until I can reasonably tell what/if the guy is bluffing then I will just continue to do so. I apply the same reasoing to loose 3betters. Every once in a while I'll get a guy reraise 99 preflop only to check it down postflop, same goes for A3 which doesnt make anysense.

Yeah, but I'll also open/re-raise crap like 74s, 86s, 75s, etc.

Overall, I'm pretty ok with playing the same hand a lot of different ways, particularly focusing on what the other guys are doing.

I make cbets 100% of the time

This is the bit i constantly think about. Preflop can extensivly play itself, we'll get enough reward in 6max to limp or raise with any two cards at times to confuse opponents. Sometimes its more a case of why do i want to bet? against a given opponent that makes me think.
Too many players still think a check behind is weakness even when you fire a pot-juicing reraise in on the turn with a tp checked behind or a set/turned flush.

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

I open raise all SCs and PPs from all positions and limp if there are limpers ahead of me. When I am the PFR'er, I make cbets 100% of the time and for the most part give up when I whiff or only get something like 3rd pair and hit any resistance.

Making cbets 100% of the time, isn't that too obvious and exploitable? And I take it the games you play in aren't too loose then, because raising more than the 'power hands' doesn't work for me on looser tables.

Another thing I was thinking about today.. guys with very tight raise ranges, like 1-5%.. do you guys call them with anything but AQ+ and pps? Like, with SCs or suited gappers etc? You have nice implied odds, but with like 5% chance to hit the flop hard (2p+) I feel it's just costing me too much. Only start doing this when effective stack is 150bb+ maybe? It's almost as if I'm mucking every time someone raises preflop lately..

Originally Posted by jackvance

Another thing I was thinking about today.. guys with very tight raise ranges, like 1-5%.. do you guys call them with anything but AQ+ and pps? Like, with SCs or suited gappers etc? You have nice implied odds, but with like 5% chance to hit the flop hard (2p+)

Suited trash doesn't hit as often and doesn't crush the other guy in the same way sets do. I usually just fold anything that isn't a pair to those guys.

I rarely call with suited trashing looking just to hit unless it's a small raise. In any case, if I'm playing a hand I'm usually looking to play poker.

I like suited connectors because its fun to hit pairs + draws and get yourself committed against KK and piss everyone off.

Since moving to UB, I've had to drop my max tables down to 5 and have played a lot more poker instead of machining it. I started just potting all my cbets since the bet pot button is so convenient and it seems like its taking it down a lot more. I could have just been running like shit yesterday though when I was typing out 3/4th pot bets all day.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Most "TAGs" suck. I play bigger than you and here are the little gems I see in my game.

o Guys who raise pre-flop and ALWAYS bet the flop, but shutdown when called and almost always fold to a check/raise. (how often have you posted "bet and fold to resistance?")

o Obvious flop c-bet lines. Will bet like around 1/2 pot with nothing, but kick it up when they really have the goods.

o Tipping hands on the second barrel. Make repeat and smaller bets when they have air.

o Don't challenge c-bets against them often enough.

o Don't play their blinds often enough because they're running too many tables. Insta-profit here if you just give them a little gut check 3x bb raise. Shut down on the flop unless you hit big. That really confuses them.

o Play fairly well, but don't bet big enough, often enough. You always know you can get a reasonably priced showdown against them, allowing you to hang in there with lukewarm hands, then grill them for real value when you improve.

Of course a lot of this crap doesn't get picked up by the HUD-bots.

Once you start exploiting their weak, predictable behavior, you will get more action and most will eventually adjust. So don't be too obvious about what you're doing and shift it way back into low gear if you've just given a lot of action because you're gonna get paid-off by the guy who's trying to play well and is starting to think something is up.

BTW: A whole lot of you owe me a drink and don't think I won't collect...

I read this a couple days ago and it's really a great post. I actually searched it this time because I couldn't find it. Pretty much everything you pointed out either does, or at one point has applied to my game at least to some extent.

Also a quick aside that has nothing to do with your post. Everyone, STOP CALLING EVERY TIGHT PLAYER A TAGG!!! Just because somebody's VPIP is under 20 does not make them a tagg! If they are playing 18/5 and just fire one barrell and give up when called, they aren't a tagg. They are a rock, or nit, or tight-passive. If they are playing 18/15 and frequently 3-bet preflop, fire 2 barrells with air post-flop, play back at you frequently, etc., then you can start calling them a tagg.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Originally Posted by Fnord

Most "TAGs" suck. I play bigger than you and here are the little gems I see in my game.

o Guys who raise pre-flop and ALWAYS bet the flop, but shutdown when called and almost always fold to a check/raise. (how often have you posted "bet and fold to resistance?")

o Obvious flop c-bet lines. Will bet like around 1/2 pot with nothing, but kick it up when they really have the goods.

o Tipping hands on the second barrel. Make repeat and smaller bets when they have air.

o Don't challenge c-bets against them often enough.

o Don't play their blinds often enough because they're running too many tables. Insta-profit here if you just give them a little gut check 3x bb raise. Shut down on the flop unless you hit big. That really confuses them.

o Play fairly well, but don't bet big enough, often enough. You always know you can get a reasonably priced showdown against them, allowing you to hang in there with lukewarm hands, then grill them for real value when you improve.

Of course a lot of this crap doesn't get picked up by the HUD-bots.

Once you start exploiting their weak, predictable behavior, you will get more action and most will eventually adjust. So don't be too obvious about what you're doing and shift it way back into low gear if you've just given a lot of action because you're gonna get paid-off by the guy who's trying to play well and is starting to think something is up.

BTW: A whole lot of you owe me a drink and don't think I won't collect...

I read this a couple days ago and it's really a great post. I actually searched it this time because I couldn't find it. Pretty much everything you pointed out either does, or at one point has applied to my game at least to some extent.

Also a quick aside that has nothing to do with your post. Everyone, STOP CALLING EVERY TIGHT PLAYER A TAGG!!! Just because somebody's VPIP is under 20 does not make them a tagg! If they are playing 18/5 and just fire one barrell and give up when called, they aren't a tagg. They are a rock, or nit, or tight-passive. If they are playing 18/15 and frequently 3-bet preflop, fire 2 barrells with air post-flop, play back at you frequently, etc., then you can start calling them a tagg.

18/15 is a nit, sorry Lukie.



Haha j/k, being a nit has more to do with postflop tendencies than preflop in many cases.

Originally Posted by aislephive

Haha j/k, being a nit has more to do with postflop tendencies than preflop in many cases.

Fuck, then how am I supposed to run 16 tables and let the HUD make all of my decisions for me?

For the record,

I rarely use my HUD these days. I just wanted to throw that in there.

Still though Fnord, they are useful and you know that. Some players base way, WAY too many of their decisions off of them though, and I know that.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by aislephive

Haha j/k, being a nit has more to do with postflop tendencies than preflop in many cases.

Fuck, then how am I supposed to run 16 tables and let the HUD make all of my decisions for me?

I use my HUD all the time and am pretty big about it, but I don't let them make my decisions. I use it to get a better feel of what hands people are playing preflop. It's helpful to know for example when a 30/2 donk opens UTG, then calling with a PP and playing it super fast when you flop a set and watch them stack off. All I use HUD for is to narrow my opponents hand ranges preflop, that's a pretty big edge to know how often your opponents are limping / raising / folding. If a 20/8 player limps in UTG I can put most of his range on small pairs, with suited connectors mixed in and so forth. If a 40/10 player limps in UTG his range is probably any ace, any pair, any suited connector, various offsuit gappers, etc. And if a 90/10 player limps in UTG his range is everything but the very worst hands. Knowing all of this makes postflop decisions a lot easier and well calculated.

The general consencous is that Tag = regular solid player. People kind of group all tight regulars together as Tags which is incorrect but just how it is. I don't play against all tags the same way nor do I think a 20/10 tag and a 22/18 tag are remotely similar.

[quote="aislephive"]

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by aislephive

Haha j/k, being a nit has more to do with postflop tendencies than preflop in many cases.

The general consencous is that Tag = regular solid player. People kind of group all tight regulars together as Tags which is incorrect but just how it is. I don't play against all tags the same way nor do I think a 20/10 tag and a 22/18 tag are remotely similar.

Yeah, these are good points. I even find myself doing this but rarely give exact stats b/c I usually don't use a HUD anymore. The thing is though, the 2/4 game on stars really is filled up with TAgg regulars. Rarely do I come across a reg who has a PFR less then half of their VPIP and doesn't have at least some decent agression after the flop.