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theory post: ISF theorem and overbetting

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  1. #1

    Default theory post: ISF theorem and overbetting

    I came up with this post by thinking about a recent 2-4 NL hand that I misplayed. I raised Q8s to $12 on the button, and a regular called from the big blind. The flop came A22 rainbow, I cbet $16 and he called. The turn was 7 giving me a flush draw, I bet $40 into the $55 pot and he called again. The river was an offsuit 6, I gave up and his AJ took the pot down. The reason I misplayed the hand is, first of all, my turn semibluff is -EV if I'm not also planning on bluffing the river when I miss. Occasionally he folds something like TT on the turn but usually I'm getting snapcalled by a hand I have 9 outs against, and that won't fold blank rivers either but might fold if I make a flush. So I should have just taken the free card on the turn...

    ...unless I was planning on overbet shoving a blank river! We can easily have hands like AA, 77, AK, and 22 here, and he rarely has those hands. Actually he probably never has any of them except quads once in a blue moon. So from the ISF Theorem this is a good spot for us to fire three barrels because we have the nuts way more often than he does. This might be -EV if I just bet 3/4 pot three times, but it becomes +EV if I overshove the river, allowing me to three-barrel more often and just making it tougher in general for him to play marginal hands out of position vs. me, which is what I want when I'm on the button.

    Before I get into the math of why overbetting lets us bluff more often, first of all let's list the hands could I be betting the turn and the river for value with given his range. I think his calling range of a 3-barrel is overwhelmingly AT-AQ, so we should three-barrel every hand that's ahead of that range, which includes AA, AK, AQ, A7s, A2s, 77, K2s. That's 25 combos once we take into account the ace blocker that he almost definitely has. Assuming that I want him to be indifferent between calling and folding to a river bet, if I bet $100 into the $135 pot on the river I should only be bluffing 30% of the time. This means I can 3-barrel 10 combos of missed flush draws. But if I overbet shove the river for 2.4 times the pot with the above hands, he's indifferent between calling and folding when I bluff 41% of the time. This means I can also 3-barrel 17 combos of missed flush draws instead of just 10. These 3-barrel bluffs are +EV because they're neutral EV if we brick the river and they're obviously +EV if we happen to hit our flush.

    If you know your opponent has a bluff-catcher, overbetting the river allows you to profitably 3-barrel him more often than you could do with a normal sized bet. Obviously the best play game-theory wise isn't necessarily the best play in practice but in this case I think it very well may be. If I had overshoved the river here I think my opponent would probably have just shrugged his shoulders and folded since he'd never seen me do anything like that before.
  2. #2
    nice post
  3. #3
    i like this a lot against thinking players
  4. #4
    Galapogos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarath
    i like this a lot against thinking players
    Yeah, nice post mcatdog.


    Quote Originally Posted by sauce123
    I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
  5. #5
    yep, you pretty much described theoretically why you would overbet.
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  6. #6
    will641's Avatar
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    nice mcat.
    Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
  7. #7
    I like it. With a tight image.
  8. #8
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    Just a quick question. Shouldn't we be doing the same then with our nuthands? I mean if we valuebet those for 3/4 pot at the river, it will be obvious to a thinking player no?

    I only have experience at 50/100NL, but I also think it should be on a pretty dry board (like this) and emphasized that you must "know" your opponent only has a bluff catcher. Signs for me to make me want to call an overbet usually are, pretty aggro player (like af 3+), missed draws on board. So we should make sure these conditions are not there when we do it. So our af shouldnt be too high and no missed draws.

    Probably pretty standard for you guys, but dont know if everyone (especially lower stakes players) are aware of this.
  9. #9
    this was very educational, thank you!
    Quote Originally Posted by Carroters
    Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by BigPapi
    Just a quick question. Shouldn't we be doing the same then with our nuthands?
    yeah... hes saying to do that.
  11. #11
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    ok thanks. read it again and I see it now. english (not my primary language) is more difficult when I'm just awake I guess
  12. #12
    Using mcat theorem for value (and to fold out splits). Villain is a decent reg.

    Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Holdem Ring game - Blinds: $2/$4 - 6 players - Converter

    Stack sizes:
    UTG: $114.20
    UTG+1: $574
    Hero: $835
    Button: $400
    SB: $402
    BB: $609

    Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 9 K
    2 folds, Hero raises to $14, Button calls, 2 folds.

    Flop: 2 K 8 ($34, 2 players)
    Hero bets $28, Button calls.

    Turn: A ($90, 2 players)
    Hero bets $70, Button calls.

    River: 2 ($230, 2 players)
    Hero bets $344, Button calls all-in $288.
    Uncalled bets: $56 returned to Hero.

    Results:
    Final pot: $806
    Hero showed K 9
    Button mucks T 8
  13. #13
    will641's Avatar
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    villain is tag, doesnt stack off light. i waited like 10 seconds. good/bad/ugly/fugly? my c/r size sucks, i know. i acted w/o thinking too much, but if you were going to c/r, which is certainly questionable, what would you make it?

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

    MP ($177.45)
    Button ($227)
    SB ($181.90)
    Hero ($321.95)
    UTG ($294.45)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, K.
    1 fold, MP raises to $8, 2 folds, Hero calls $6.

    Flop: ($17) 6, 7, 5 (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP bets $16, Hero raises to $42, MP calls $26.

    Turn: ($101) 9 (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP checks.

    River: ($101) 6 (2 players)
    Hero bets $271.95 (All-In), MP has about $130 behind.
    Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
  14. #14
    nice post
    The secret to success in poker is to rig the odds in your favor.
  15. #15
    I can have a big hand but you can't

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

    Button ($695.80)
    Hero ($433.15)
    BB ($394)
    UTG ($416.45)
    MP1 ($413.95)
    MP2 ($440)
    CO ($1356.60)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with 7, 8.
    3 folds, CO raises to $12, Button calls $12, Hero calls $10, 1 fold.

    Flop: ($40) 9, K, J (3 players)
    Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

    Turn: ($40) 2 (3 players)
    Hero bets $28, CO calls $28, Button folds.

    River: ($96) 8 (2 players)
    Hero bets $120, CO folds.
  16. #16
    ty mcat... villain used timebank then folded.

    Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
    LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

    BB: $800
    UTG: $851
    CO: $364.50
    Hero (BTN): $476.80
    SB: $471.35

    Pre-Flop: Q A dealt to Hero (BTN)
    UTG raises to $14, CO folds, Hero calls $14, 2 folds

    Flop: ($34) J 2 K (2 Players)
    UTG bets $26, Hero calls $26

    Turn: ($86) 8 (2 Players)
    UTG checks, Hero bets $66, UTG calls $66

    River: ($218) 9 (2 Players)
    UTG checks, Hero bets $275

    Results: $218 Pot ($3 Rake)
    Hero mucked Q A and WON $215 (+$109 NET)
  17. #17
    Great hands guys. But don't forget to do it for value!

    This guy's a solid reg, I was really surprised he called.

    Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Holdem Ring game - Blinds: $2/$4 - 6 players - Converter

    Stack sizes:
    Hero: $406.70
    UTG+1: $598.90
    CO: $226.30
    Button: $293.75
    SB: $731.30
    BB: $400

    Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with K A
    Hero raises to $14, 4 folds, BB calls.

    Flop: K 3 3 ($30, 2 players)
    BB checks, Hero bets $24, BB calls.

    Turn: J ($78, 2 players)
    BB checks, Hero bets $60, BB calls.

    River: K ($198, 2 players)
    BB checks, Hero is all-in $308.7, BB calls all-in $302.
    Uncalled bets: $6.7 returned to Hero.

    Results:
    Final pot: $802
    Hero showed A K
    BB mucks T T
  18. #18
    will641's Avatar
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    zook i thought you were playing 10/20 before your long vacation. how come your playing 2/4 now?
    Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by will641
    zook i thought you were playing 10/20 before your long vacation. how come your playing 2/4 now?
    Was never playing 10/20 full-time, I only put in ~3k hands taking shots. Then I spent a huge chunk of my roll on 2 months of traveling with my fiancee.

    I might start taking shots at 5/10 again, but I'm in no hurry to move back up.
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by mcatdog
    I can have a big hand but you can't

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

    Button ($695.80)
    Hero ($433.15)
    BB ($394)
    UTG ($416.45)
    MP1 ($413.95)
    MP2 ($440)
    CO ($1356.60)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with 7, 8.
    3 folds, CO raises to $12, Button calls $12, Hero calls $10, 1 fold.

    Flop: ($40) 9, K, J (3 players)
    Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

    Turn: ($40) 2 (3 players)
    Hero bets $28, CO calls $28, Button folds.

    River: ($96) 8 (2 players)
    Hero bets $120, CO folds.
    Sick
  21. #21
    will641's Avatar
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    villain is a pretty decent reg, stats are borderline loose pf, not too agg post flop.
    Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
  22. #22
    AK, K9, 98, and sets are in my range but not his. I bluffed all-in because I thought two pair was a big part of his range and he wouldn't fold it to a pot-sized bluff.

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

    UTG ($183.50)
    MP ($85.05)
    Hero ($276.20)
    SB ($245)
    BB ($200)

    Preflop: Hero is Button with 8, A.
    2 folds, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, BB calls $4.

    Flop: ($13) Q, 6, J (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero bets $8, BB calls $8.

    Turn: ($29) T (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero bets $20, BB calls $20.

    River: ($69) 3 (2 players)
    BB checks, Hero bets $242.2 (All-In), BB folds.

    Final Pot: $69
  23. #23
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    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

    BB ($40)
    UTG ($98.50)
    MP ($202.65)
    Hero ($100)
    Button ($88.50)
    SB ($71.55)

    Preflop: Hero is CO with J, K.
    UTG raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero calls $3, Button calls $3, 1 fold, BB calls $2.

    Flop: ($12.50) 5, 4, Q (4 players)
    BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, Button bets $1, BB folds, UTG calls $1, Hero calls $1.

    Turn: ($15.50) 5 (3 players)
    UTG checks, Hero bets $8, Button calls $8, UTG folds.

    River: ($31.50) 3 (2 players)
    Hero bets $45, Button folds.

    Final Pot: $31.50
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