There has got to be a better way?

Yesterday





I thought I was about to quit yesterday and take up knitting. I feel that I am hitting a new stage in my game and then this happened today.


Yesterday and today




Is there a better way to earn 5+BB/100

Originally Posted by jyms

Is there a better way to earn 5+BB/100

What sites do you play on?

Maybe you're just not adjusting?

The online games right now are very particular.

playing iPoker. I will say this, they are willing to build big pots with mediocre hands and stack off with TP more than they should.

Fnord may be right, I tend to get it in light a ton. I do call off my stack as often as I am pushing my stack. It comes down to my turn/river play from what I can tell. I make too many loose calls (Be sticky in the pot) and am not playing enough poker on the cheaper streets.

Originally Posted by jyms

not playing enough poker on the cheaper streets.

Really, I tend to play more 'poker' on the later streets. I feel that the farther I go in a hand the more advantage I have, because there are so many players who bot their way through preflop and the flop.

Start taking responsibility and start learning away from the tables.

It's only two days and you finished up 2 buyins. Without seeing hands I can't see what the problem is.

man my PLO graphs have a lot less variance

Originally Posted by zook

It's only two days and you finished up 2 buyins. Without seeing hands I can't see what the problem is.

I would agree Zook. I don't think me cherry picking two or three or five hands to look over would be enough to figure out why I have such a high variance game. I am sure that anything I show here would result in a "sample size" response and I would expect nothing less. I know I have a winning game and I am sure my winrate is not optimal enough to allow for quite a bit of that swing. Here is this months graph...




Here are some things standing out for me at the moment that I KNOW are not in the proper "zone"



Any thoughts on where to start? It seems that all my aggression stats have dropped off after our last conversations about non showdown stats in your OP thread and I am now at a loss as to where they fit in for me.

I definitely think you need to get your 3b% up above 5 at least. And you're calling too many 3bets of course. Stop calling them oop altogether. Playing 4bet or fold vs. 3bets oop is waaaay better than calling too many oop or not having plan when you call them.

Your post-flop stats are pretty passive but I'm sure you know that it's possible to win with them in the right games. It's really hard to evaluate a post-flop game with just stats. You should know from session review if you're making too many marginal calls or not playing your draws and monsters fast enough.

Looks like your BN and Blind play needs a lot of work and your 3-bet game sucks monkey balls.

agreed.

wtf you stole my graphs

many you call a lot of 3bets

do you ever 4bet w/o KK+,AK?

I


I actually call a lot of 3 bets in position. I find floating cronic 3 betters out of the blinds is very easy to read postflop. They bet small into the flop and check/fold a ton of turns to 1/2PSB's

Wow start folding to threebets closer to 80-85% of the time and your winrate should skyrocket.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Looks like your BN and Blind play needs a lot of work.

are you saying this because of the gap of Vpip/PFR?

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Wow start folding to threebets closer to 80-85% of the time and your winrate should skyrocket.

Isn't that really exploitable, especially as you move to higher stakes?

Originally Posted by JL

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Wow start folding to threebets closer to 80-85% of the time and your winrate should skyrocket.

Isn't that really exploitable, especially as you move to higher stakes?

I'm beginning to believe no one at small stakes is capable of exploiting.

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Originally Posted by JL

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Wow start folding to threebets closer to 80-85% of the time and your winrate should skyrocket.

Isn't that really exploitable, especially as you move to higher stakes?

I'm beginning to believe no one at small stakes is capable of exploiting.

Completely agree. I make a lot of money in 3bet/4bet pots because everyone seems completely lost. And I'm not even good, just better than most at my levels.

Originally Posted by JL

Isn't that really exploitable, especially as you move to higher stakes?

Fold to 3-bet is a number ACROSS ALL 3-BETS. This includes nits who have a range of AK/QQ+, short stack pushes, total donators and finally thinking TAggs. If you think someone is 3-betting you light, ADJUST. Until then, don't assume the guy at the other end is ISF, because he's probably not.

For the vast majority of the player pool a 3-bet means buisness and your stats should reflect that. Giving up an opener or two to some guy who just discovered that 3-betting is fun isn't going to get you stupid broke.

Are people at 100nl 3-betting light enough to warrant calling so often? Even in position?

I agree with ISF, to just fold to 3bets a lot more. No need to start outplaying everyone, and definitely calling so many 3-bets (and I'm sure you're being forced to jam on flops and or float and bet turns) is adding a TON to variance and swings.

Originally Posted by griffey24

Are people at 100nl 3-betting light enough to warrant calling so often? Even in position?

I agree with ISF, to just fold to 3bets a lot more. No need to start outplaying everyone, and definitely calling so many 3-bets (and I'm sure you're being forced to jam on flops and or float and bet turns) is adding a TON to variance and swings.

There is the typical $100NL mix you will find on any site. There are the 4% regs, the 8-10% Laggtards and the usual fish that don't know shit. I have been calling far too many against the Laggtards. Since they seem to be my majority of 3bet situations I have been playing more against them in position by calling. I have been trying to take advantage of people that have learned to 3 bet more but tend to do it from the blinds because they have read an article on position or ranges and are 3 betting light because of my range OTB or in the CO, but have no idea where to go from there ( Seems Fold/4bet is still preferred). I don't claim to be playing 3 bets right and even said as much in my stats post. I know it's not optimal and need to work on it.

without excellent reads, NL is a pretty tough and very swingy game without the initiative, even vs mediocre-bad opponents

its hard to play in a 3bet pot when your not the 3better... think of how many times you probably call and have to fold to a cbet because your completly lost on his range... You can call a 3bet every NOW AND THEN to trap him... but I think folding/4betting is your best option and if you start 4betting light your going to see even worse swings.

I do believe a lot of people at this level are really bad in 3bet pots and you could make a lot more money by 3betting people more... since it seems everyone likes to call 3bets light and they have to fold to your cbet.

but when your the one being 3bet and your calling it just puts you in a horrible spot...

id say a good example is you raise from button with JTo, sb 3bets and you smooth call... pot is like 28$ flop is Jxx and villian bets 21$... ouch thats a lot and you dont even know if your TP is good, since QQ+ is def in his 3betting range... but you cant just fold TP like this....

I hope my rambles are making sense haha... but yah you will save yourself a lot of trouble by just folding to 3bets more.... its a lot better to lose 4$ a bunch of times than 14$ + a bunch of times

I'm guessing your ATS % is ~28%?? If this is correct it and you feel you can outplay your light 3betting opponent who is in the blinds, then it MAY be correct for you to fold ~60% to 3bets. Another thing to remember is that unless they are 3betting you more than 1/3 of your steals, every time you steal it is +EV. Also it is very possible for both you and the 3better to have be +EV in steal spots. Also find better seats!!!

If you raise 15% of hands from MP, and a person threebets you 20% of the time you raise from MP, is he exploiting you if you play with 4% of those hands (folding, what, 70% of the time??) No.

I think people in this thread are somewhat lost. Threebetting a large frequency isn't an inherently good move and versus a lot of players isn't a good thing to do.

Jyms, just don't play anything but AK/JJ to threebets from UTG, and call with something like AJ+, KQ, 88 from the CO and BU (versus lighter threebettors) and you'll be golden. O

Obviously, the real rule is you adjust your calling/fourbet range based on:
1. With what frequency and hands opp is threebetting.
2. How often your opening from that position preflop

If someone played 1/1, aka only opened AA/KK preflop and folded the rest, would threebetting this person with anything but AA ever be correct? No. Thats a microcosmic point representing the real macrocosmic concept.

Ok, I just want to answer a few points made that maybe I didn't make myself clear about. And thanks for all the comments, this was the discussion I was hoping to have.

Originally Posted by Jager

Originally Posted by jyms

not playing enough poker on the cheaper streets.

Really, I tend to play more 'poker' on the later streets. I feel that the farther I go in a hand the more advantage I have, because there are so many players who bot their way through preflop and the flop.

My problem is that my preflop game is not "botlike" nor standard, this is one of the things that really needs work, hence my "poker on cheaper streets" comment.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Start taking responsibility and start learning away from the tables.

Wow harsh but some truth, I do blame myself and my play, I do agree I don't spend enough time on poker away from the tables.

Originally Posted by Fnord

For the vast majority of the player pool a 3-bet means business and your stats should reflect that. Giving up an opener or two to some guy who just discovered that 3-betting is fun isn't going to get you stupid broke.

This is a standout problem for me. Instead of Fuck it, I am trying to find reasons to play against a 6 or 7%+ 3better.

Originally Posted by Jager

I'm guessing your ATS % is ~28%?? If this is correct it and you feel you can outplay your light 3betting opponent who is in the blinds, then it MAY be correct for you to fold ~60% to 3bets. Another thing to remember is that unless they are 3betting you more than 1/3 of your steals, every time you steal it is +EV. Also it is very possible for both you and the 3better to have be +EV in steal spots. Also find better seats!!!

My steal is actually 30% but I agree. My table selection is pretty good, the problem comes from having position on light three betters and trying to play postflop in ballooned pots instead of 4bet/folding.


Most of my issues are not from 3 betting (which I don't do enough) but from calling 3 bets, which I do way too often. My goal is to finish the month with 75% folding to 3 bets, give or take. I want to get my preflop/flop game under control and make it sound enough to focus on the last two streets.There has been a great bunch of info sent my way, thanks for that. I will let you know how it goes.

thanks for the thoughts.

Originally Posted by jyms

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Start taking responsibility and start learning away from the tables.

Wow harsh but some truth, I do blame myself and my play, I do agree I don't spend enough time on poker away from the tables.

Sorry I didn't mean it to be harsh at all. I just mean that you need to start isolating the problems with your game which are causing you to run like this and try to fix them one by one. In my experience this takes a lot of work and most of it away from the table. A lot of reviewing hands and thinking and applying. This is kinda what you're doing with this thread though so probably ignore me.

Like you have some info on 3betting now that you maybe didn't have before. For the next week of play analyse every spot where you 3bet someone and think about ranges and pot odds and different flops and different lines and stats and all sorts of shit for every hand. Go through the same process for spots where you could have 3bet someone but didn't and ask yourself why not. Tha'ts how to improve.

6-7% isnt a very high threebet%, its just balanced, you dont really need to do shit against it.

4bet the lagtards in spots where they seem to be most loosely 3betting, i.e. OTB or from the blinds. Do it with hands that have some blockers, e.g. KJ, KQ, AQ/AJ, QJ for 4bet/fold candidates

vs. nits just snap fold to their 3bets unless you think they are doing it in an obvious spot and their % is at least 4%, then 4bet them with some blockers.

Flatting 3bets is mostly gross, I'd rather flat AA/KK vs someone spewy