Time for a hero call? 600NL

Villain is a reg that I don't have a great read on. 23/17/3.5. 3bets 6.6% He seems to like to get tricky on the flop in single raised pots, raises a lot of cbets etc. Then again he just flatted a small 4bet IP which in my book isn't great with any hand unless he has some sick read about how I play in 4bet pots (which he doesn't). I've no idea what his range is.

$3/$6 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($914.35)
Hero ($591.00)
BTN ($672.00)
SB ($600.60)
BB ($909.65)

Pre-flop: ($9, 5 players) Hero is CO
1 fold, Hero raises to $17.25, BTN raises to $64.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $144, BTN calls $79.50

Flop: ($297, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN goes all-in $528, $447 to Hero ($447)?

I dont like check calling much, you get shown qq-99 an awful lot. however Im not check folding, leading for 210 seems good to me and call a shove as your rarely worse than a 60/40 underdog plus you have some fold equity by doing this.

$200 pre
Shove any flop.

Stack sizes were too awkward to take a different 4-bet line.

edit: Except maybe CiB.

Originally Posted by Fnord

$200 pre
Shove any flop.

hello 2006. I would probably play the same and call.

I also agree on 3 betting bigger, 180-200 is good, then pot commit yourself on any flop. On flops you whiff I wouldnt simply shove but make a bet that leaves you with like 60 bucks or something as that looks stronger than shoving, dunno why but when you overbet/pot shove flops in 4 bet pots on a low board people always put you on ak.

Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101

make a bet that leaves you with like 60 bucks or something as that looks stronger than shoving.

noooo

Yeah 4betting bigger pretty much isn't an option, I like to 4bet bluff a ton.

I'd still prolly make it a little bigger pre, 160-165 im thinking cuz you're OOP and stacks r a little deeper

I'm not sure what to do on flop, I guess calling is standard b/c his flatting range is very wide preflop, in position, getting decent odds, and given his stats/trickyness

if it was a tighter guy id fold

Originally Posted by Alexos

I'd still prolly make it a little bigger pre, 160-165 im thinking cuz you're OOP and stacks r a little deeper

I'm not sure what to do on flop, I guess calling is standard b/c his flatting range is very wide preflop, in position, getting decent odds, and given his stats/trickyness

if it was a tighter guy id fold

Stacks are even a little under 100bb...it's just that hero's open was small which lead to 'weird' stack sizes on the flop when conventional 3bet and 4bet sizes are used.
Irish, if you're sure about using this open size, I'm with Fnord about either 4betting bigger or smaller for less awkward flop stacks.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Yeah 4betting bigger pretty much isn't an option, I like to 4bet bluff a ton.

this

postflop is pretty much a flip I think.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101

make a bet that leaves you with like 60 bucks or something as that looks stronger than shoving.

noooo

lol ma bad, scrap that then.

I think I'd rather shove the flop than c/c.

I think better hands can definitely fold. Some mid-pairish type hands that called cause they thought they were ahead or for set value, and now you're shoving on a rag board and they level themselves into folding cause you must expect a call.

etc etc..

Ok I guess making it $165 pf would be a little better and discourage him from calling a touch more. 4betting smaller is also an interesting idea, not one I have much experience with though and I'd imagine playing the flop/turn OOP with a huge pot could be kinda difficult. Definitely something to consider though.

Griffey the reason I don't like open shoving the flop is that I think it's judt too easy for him to say meh with middle pair, put me on AK and stick the rest in closing the action. However I think if I check then he pretty much has to shove anything in his range without decent SD value.

My standard 4b is a bit bigger, as has been mentioned. c/c seems best and I wanna know what he had.

This whole spot just sucks, I really wouldn't know what to do here unless I had been playing with this player and I'd do whatever my gut told me to in this heat of the moment.

When you say make it $165 to discourage him form calling - surely you want to encourage him to call in this spot and to come along with AQ/AJs etc. If he has got something better then he is going to call regardless of whether you make it 165 or 140 but the advantage to 140 is that he will come along more often when he is dominated.

Also agree with your point about making 4 bets small because you 4 bet bluff a lot but that goes without saying.

Originally Posted by Toadstool

When you say make it $165 to discourage him form calling - surely you want to encourage him to call in this spot and to come along with AQ/AJs etc. If he has got something better then he is going to call regardless of whether you make it 165 or 140 but the advantage to 140 is that he will come along more often when he is dominated.

Meh we don't both flop good very often and it's v v hard to extract value OOP in a 4bet pot with Ace high. I think I'm going to make more costly mistakes than he is.

Originally Posted by zook

wanna know what he had.

JJ.

Quick fire round: What do we do if he bets $188 instead of shoving?

I'm still not positive that calling this shove is good. I guess it's all about gameflow and all though. Also if it was closer to a PSB it would be an easier call, but as is we're not getting great odds.

my first reaction is that he has a mid pair and wants to protect

so I guess i fold

had I been playing the hand I'd prob just bet like 180 on the flop and call a shove

backdoor 1 time baby!

Are people flatting 4bets without a pair? Besides megafish I mean.

I fold flop without that much thought but maybe thats bad? On preflop raise sizing I think if I don't feel like I'm fourbetting light at all making it small is better, but if I'm fourbetting light at all in this spot I want to discourage position calls.

i used to think it was an lolfold but ive seen durr call a couple of times in this spot and it began to make sense

Originally Posted by zook

Are people flatting 4bets without a pair? Besides megafish I mean.

A lot more than you would think imo. I've seen it happen umpteen times at 600/1kNL from guys who are otherwise decent grinders. Maybe things are different on the US sites.

So how do I adjust for people flatting 4bets? Just 4bet a little less and to a bigger amount? Make small cbets on A/K high flops (when I've missed the flop after 4betting)? Call more 3bets and raise their cbets instead of 4betting? Anything else?

Reading through these posts I realize my postflop play needs some rethinking. From where I came from (micro) a reraise on the flop meant AA or KK (and maybe maybe AKs) and that was that. As I started playing 200 NL about 6 months ago I find people reraising willynilly with 99+ and 4 betting with the same. I've gotten better at taking a stand against these raises now, but it still scares the crap out of me when a heavy reraise from SB turns into a check on the flop which I dutifully bet with my pair of tens (as I in that instance took a chance with T9s, flop showing T75) expecting a triple reraise coming back at me, but getting a fold instead.

I've also gotten better at reraising myself, understanding that a limp from button or SB into my BB needs to be sorted out, all thanks to the stuff I'm reading here. And it works.

Well, my thoughts. Keep these posts up, it gives me lot more understading of what I've been doing wrong for a long time (and still does, no doubt)

Comments?

Board: 5c 8s Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.396% 38.40% 00.00% 9503 0.00 { AcKh }
Hand 1: 61.604% 61.60% 00.00% 15247 0.00 { JJ, AcQc, KcQc, KcJc, QTs+, J9s+, T9s }

We need 37.6% equity to break-even here. If he starts shoving 99 or 77 then the call becomes awful, but if he's shoving those hands it should be really easy to tarp him.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Comments?

Board: 5c 8s Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.396% 38.40% 00.00% 9503 0.00 { AcKh }
Hand 1: 61.604% 61.60% 00.00% 15247 0.00 { JJ, AcQc, KcQc, KcJc, QTs+, J9s+, T9s }

We need 37.6% equity to break-even here. If he starts shoving 99 or 77 then the call becomes awful, but if he's shoving those hands it should be really easy to tarp him.

bump

I think his range is wider, for sure there are some AQo, AJo,99,QQ,67s,79s

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Comments?

Board: 5c 8s Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.396% 38.40% 00.00% 9503 0.00 { AcKh }
Hand 1: 61.604% 61.60% 00.00% 15247 0.00 { JJ, AcQc, KcQc, KcJc, QTs+, J9s+, T9s }

We need 37.6% equity to break-even here. If he starts shoving 99 or 77 then the call becomes awful, but if he's shoving those hands it should be really easy to tarp him.

Yeah that's what I came up with roughly when I stoved it before I started the thread. I think he goes's for a checkdown with some of his pair hands some of the time and his unpaired hand range might be wider for all I know.

I don't think you have enough midish pairs in there either. I think sometimes they try checking this down, but other times they might just bomb for protection I'd imagine. At least enough to warrant some combinations. Especially given its CO vs Btn, I don't think its unreasonable to see midpairs getting 3-bet in this spot.