Tough spot

How do you proceed after this flop lead, vs 3 different types of villains.

1) 26/17, regular who is pretty aggressive. Not sure if sc's are in his range or not preflop.
2) 19/15, TAGG reg. not tricky
3) unknown

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($1914.10)
Hero ($400)
UTG ($781.40)
MP ($402)
CO ($45.80)
Button ($97)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, A.
2 folds, CO calls $4, Button calls $4, SB completes, Hero raises to $28, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls $20.

Flop: ($60) 6, A, 2 (2 players)
SB bets $44, Hero ????????

I call versus the first 2 and raise the 3rd one.

I'd think the majority of both of the first two players' flop ranges would be flush draws/sets. The unknown could concievably be holding A-6/A-2 as well. Versus the trickier opponent i'd probably want to look them up if a spade doesn't come on board. Versus the straightforward TAG and the unknown, i'd call on the flop and fold to a turn bet.

Leading out here really forces you to play passively and straightforward. It seems like leading out on polarized flop textures would be an excellent play to incorporate into my game, versus thinking and non thinking players. Just adjust your double barreling frequencies.

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Leading out here really forces you to play passively and straightforward. It seems like betting a polar range would be an excellent play to incorporate into my game

FYP

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Leading out here really forces you to play passively and straightforward. It seems like betting a polar range would be an excellent play to incorporate into my game

FYP

can you explain if/why balanced ranges might be better in certain situations? From the first theory thread, i saw the idea of polarized/balanced 3bet ranges was discussed. OOP it seemed like the consensus was that a balanced range would be better to 3bet preflop. Here villain is OOP and a polarized range seems to work really well. What is fundamentally different about being out of position preflop and on the flop, in terms of optimal ranges?

Think about it.

tagg opp raises preflop, i call from the blinds with xx.

flop comes 874, i check he cbets i call.

turn is a 7, i lead.

What's opp going to raise with.

first sorry about the hijack massimo. should i start another thread for this?

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Think about it.

tagg opp raises preflop, i call from the blinds with xx.

flop comes 874, i check he cbets i call.

turn is a 7, i lead.

What's opp going to raise with.

A-7/5-6/4-4 and air. why couldn't he raise you with a polarized range as well and put you to a difficult decision?

This is really interesting.

If his raising range is that small, what about his calling range? If villain calls, what does that tell us?


I've also been thinking about the following line;
- TAG raises, we call in blinds.
- we donk flop, if called we c/r lots of turns.

I thought hands we could do this at least with are SC's when we hit a semi-decent flop. Or any hand on a very dry flop.

OP, I call all three and usually fold to a strong turn bet.

ISF, I'm not really following this discussion but I think with the line you are describing you better be prepared to follow up on lots of rivers.

minSim, I like that line but I'm not really sure why. I know I hate it when people do it to me.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

OP, I call all three and usually fold to a strong turn bet.

I'm with Irish here, I'm calling all 3.

ISF - Why are we calling the two known players, and all of a sudden raising the unknown? If anything, shouldn't it be the opposite. We have some idea of the known players ranges, so more confident in raising them. But the unknown we know nothing about, so we play our hand more slowly and get to showdown?

we can call the 2 knowns because we have a better handle on their range and their turn tendencies.

Originally Posted by griffey24

Why are we calling the two known players, and all of a sudden raising the unknown? If anything, shouldn't it be the opposite. We have some idea of the known players ranges, so more confident in raising them. But the unknown we know nothing about, so we play our hand more slowly and get to showdown?

ahhhh, exactly what i was thinking. this must be a small stakes mindset that changes as you move up?

As far as the betting with polar ranges concept: I spelled it out enough, you guys can just figure it out from here.

On the question:Versus an unknown i expect him to be leading all sorts of weird stuff and would just rather raise and play for stacks, maybe thats dumb though. I wrote my response after looking at the question for two seconds, but now im pretty convinced that i have no idea what to do with the first two.

If we call and he leads the turn, to we call?

Can we really call the flop and turn and fold river?

If we raise and he calls, do we bet the turn?

What is our image?

I think playing for stacks on the flop with the unknown is fine. Random people sitting on 500BB are very often donkeys who have been catching cards, in my experience.

I think we can call vs the straightforward reg, calling non-spade turns (bet if checked to, fold to stack-a-donk?) and folding blank rivers. He's not gonna be triple barreling all that often.

Against the aggro reg, I dunno. He's trying to make us play passively so let's play aggressively? But at the same time I think we're a decent bit behind his flop all-in range. Meh. Call flop and shove good turns?

How the hell did this happen? We have position, a good starting hand, and a good flop. How can he put us in a world of pain just like that?

I agree with calling the flop, and I'd imagine if the turn drops a spade we have to fold to the second barrel?

Given that, how much differently does this hand play out if we have AQo no spade (like in this case) vs A and the Q of spades?

anything but shoving against pretty mcuh everyone seems bad
calling is by far our worst option imo

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Think about it.

tagg opp raises preflop, i call from the blinds with xx.

flop comes 874, i check he cbets i call.

turn is a 7, i lead.

What's opp going to raise with.

depends upon his hand reading and perception. bet push is sick if you are super good versus him and can push him off any sort of good hand.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Think about it.

tagg opp raises preflop, i call from the blinds with xx.

flop comes 874, i check he cbets i call.

turn is a 7, i lead.

What's opp going to raise with.

depends upon his hand reading and perception. bet push is sick if you are super good versus him and can push him off any sort of good hand.

Originally Posted by sauce123

anything but shoving against pretty mcuh everyone seems bad
calling is by far our worst option imo

why's that? you think their ranges are more heavily weighted towards FD's and worse aces than two pairs/sets?

Also, won't shoving let him get away from a worse ace? If the known players are gonna call with a wide range of aces, then I agree that shoving is good but I'm not sure thats often the case.

comon sauce

if i m villain and we have no history my range here is A6 66 and 22

raising is lighting money on fire!

yea i hate raising here against most

Can't we just fold number 2? Surely his range is more likely to be set/ two pair, than a flush draw?

Raise the other 2?

Originally Posted by gabe

yea i hate raising here against most

I'd like to hear your line then against a turn bet, and if u call and what you do against a river bet versus various players.