TPTK vs total fish

Villain is a lagtard fish who's playing almost every hand.


POKERSTARS GAME #7394720321: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/12/11 - 05:06:33 (ET)
Table 'Elephenor II' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 3: kevgo ($140.65 in chips)
Seat 4: Renton555 ($109.50 in chips)
Seat 5: cindystuborn ($65.25 in chips)
Seat 6: Import Green ($16.50 in chips)
cindystuborn: posts small blind $0.50
triwanderer joins the table at seat #1
Import Green: posts big blind $1
bankrulle: sits out

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [Ah Ks]

kevgo: folds
Renton555: raises $3 to $4
cindystuborn: calls $3.50
Import Green: folds

*** FLOP *** [Td Ac 5c]

cindystuborn: checks
Renton555: bets $6
cindystuborn: calls $6

*** TURN *** [Td Ac 5c] [6s]

cindystuborn: checks
Renton555: bets $16
cindystuborn: raises $16 to $32
Renton555: raises $37 to $69

i would call and figure out if i wanted to value raise on the river

How aggressive? I see these players turn it up once they hit their two pair like this.

Originally Posted by Galapogos

How aggressive? I see these players turn it up once they hit their two pair like this.

i think its more important to think about the number of hands he plays like this that I have beat.

call > reraise here IMO.

also note the stacks

I shoved because i didn't want to see the river.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by Galapogos

How aggressive? I see these players turn it up once they hit their two pair like this.

i think its more important to think about the number of hands he plays like this that I have beat.

If you're going to play entirely based off statistical reason I'd suggest you take up limit over no limit. I really don't think its possible to make a read on a player from this post based off of just "Villain is a lagtard fish who's playing almost every hand".

How well is his postflop play? How often do you see him go broke?

I see players who play this style to portray a weak image then when they drop the hammer they rarely have just a pair.

i think you're overthinking it a little joshuadzl. Against a player who plays irrationally, its impossible to have as decisive of a read as you are asking for. Players like this will call allin preflop with JTs, just because "they hit straights with that hand everytime." This isn't michael1123 im playing against. Its a fish.

You disregarded both of my questions. Is he playing irrationally post flop often?

If we're talking about a player who is calling off chips on all ins with any pair often, thats fine then obviously push thats great. If you see him pushing on the turn with flush draws often, then yes, once again push obviously.

However, with next to no information on how this player plays postflop, which obviously you have information on this, I don't like the idea of just pushing. Excluded information brings me to this conclusion.

Renton,

Against a lagtard fish I would call here and let him hang himself on the river. Putting him allin isnt bad though because he has got less than a potsized bet behind.

If you just call, youre facing a river push anyway.

But I will say that when I'm shortstacking and I pull this move, Ive got top pair beat hard.

Stop relying so heavily on stats and/or how many hands people are playing. I mean it helps, but only to an extent. A guy might be 80/20 but he may never see a turn or river unless he hits something big. He might be playing a wide range preflop but what is he playing, and more importantly, how is he playing it post flop?

Yes you're ahead of his "usual range" because he plays every hand...but he's not going to play any two in this way, or even TPGK this way very often.

It's like you look at a guy's preflop stats (or tendencies) to narrow his range....then no matter what the board or his bets tell you you always come back thinking, "Well, I beat his preflop range here most of the time so I'm going to get it all-in," discounting the fact that your opponent is telling you he hit big. You shouldn't do that.

As for this particular hand I don't really have a problem with it. What I do find to be sort of a problem is the way you've described your thinking in this (and other) threads.

i don't like the patronizing way in which you've trivialized my thought process in this hand.

You are speaking as if ive played the hand like "Oh, vpip of 70, I have top pair, IM ALL IN!"

I saw that i had a strong hand, villain doesn't even have a full stack, and is a loose player who plays pretty much irrationally.

I don't know how he plays a set. HE DOESN'T KNOW HOW HE PLAYS A SET. That is the definition of irrationality.

Im sorry if this post came off the wrong way. Im extremely frustrated with myself right now, because I can't fucking win money at MICROSTAKES poker.

I agree with calling, just because you have postion and he'll push anything that sucks on the river anyway. He might find a fold with your reraise.

We aren't worried at all that he has you beaten, though.

i think its spewage....

isnt fish raising like really scary to a tptk hand?

Originally Posted by Renton

i don't like the patronizing way in which you've trivialized my thought process in this hand.

You are speaking as if ive played the hand like "Oh, vpip of 70, I have top pair, IM ALL IN!"

I saw that i had a strong hand, villain doesn't even have a full stack, and is a loose player who plays pretty much irrationally.

I don't know how he plays a set. HE DOESN'T KNOW HOW HE PLAYS A SET. That is the definition of irrationality.

Im sorry if this post came off the wrong way. Im extremely frustrated with myself right now, because I can't fucking win money at MICROSTAKES poker.

george wasn't patronizing you at all man. He was actually giving what I would consider to be great advice. I think I actually agree with everything he said. I also think the hand is fine, although I lean towards calling this turn and calling a river shove instead of pushing ourselves because this guy won't ever fold a better hand to a shove, and we give him an opportunity to hang himself if he's bluffing (this line does not look like a bluff, though).

edit: also, it looks like we're beat, although I'm not sure if we're good often enough to get stacked here-- I really have no idea. The thought process is way more important though.

Originally Posted by Lukie

george wasn't patronizing you at all man. He was actually giving what I would consider to be great advice.

I didn't say the advice was poor. I said that it sounded prepackaged based on a number of assumptions about my game that aren't necessarily true.

Those assumptions being that I have next to no reads on players (because I don't pay attention, or play too many tables, or whatever) and that I rely 100% on hud readings (which, by the way, I never even mentioned hud readings in any post in this thread).

It was kinda like how when you used to be famous for being a nit, and so every time you posted a kinda tight fold you made, Gabe automatically pegged the hand as "OMG UR A NIT, HOW CAN U FOLD" without perhaps digging a little deeper and seeing if you actually made a viable play.

The truth is, I have only been playing 4 tables lately, and have been tailoring my game a lot more to different players games, actually perhaps overcompensating, which may have been what happened in this hand. However, I don't think I'll ever get away from TPTK of Aces vs an aggressive fish with only 65bb.

I never said that you should fold...

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Stop relying so heavily on stats and/or how many hands people are playing. I mean it helps, but only to an extent. A guy might be 80/20 but he may never see a turn or river unless he hits something big. He might be playing a wide range preflop but what is he playing, and more importantly, how is he playing it post flop?

Yes you're ahead of his "usual range" because he plays every hand...but he's not going to play any two in this way, or even TPGK this way very often.

It's like you look at a guy's preflop stats (or tendencies) to narrow his range....then no matter what the board or his bets tell you you always come back thinking, "Well, I beat his preflop range here most of the time so I'm going to get it all-in," discounting the fact that your opponent is telling you he hit big. You shouldn't do that.

I think you should re-read this Renton.

My problem with this hand is this:

A decent player would probably have a strong hand here. Probably. The problem is, an irrational player doesn't play the OPPOSITE of what a good player would do.

But unless you literally think he's pressing buttons at random, you have to ask yourself what hand makes a play like this? He either:

a) likes his hand pre/flop or on the flop, and is slowplaying it
b) he has hit on the turn
c) he thinks you're bluffing or weak

a) is possible - it's rather a decent line with aces heads up against a TAG. But you think he'd do this with AQ as well, I guess? b) is unlikely, though it adds another draw - would 34c raise here? The 6 is also a good set card for him, even if that's pretty unlikely. As for c), well, if he is a decent lagg then it's not a bad move on his part - but your whole argument is based on him NOT being a good lagg! Unless you know he's not a good lagg because you've seen him minraise turns and show down third pair - in which case we really need this read to be shared with us.

If he calls a lot pre-flop then he could have pretty much any hand that hit the board, from K2 to 66. But a bad player playing such an obvious two pair+ line probably DOES have 2 pair plus - this doesn't feel like a value situation, I dunno.

The ultimate problem is that whether he's played the hand well or badly, he's put you in a very tough spot. You're repping what you've got - he's telling you he has you beat. Most of the time, when a bad player does this, they're not lying.

(please note I have absolutely no idea how I'd have played this hand - quite possibly exactly the same way, because I'd be unable to lay down with such good odds against a craptard)

The ultimate problem is that whether he's played the hand well or badly, he's put you in a very tough spot. You're repping what you've got - he's telling you he has you beat. Most of the time, when a bad player does this, they're not lying.

(please note I have absolutely no idea how I'd have played this hand - quite possibly exactly the same way, because I'd be unable to lay down with such good odds against a craptard)

haha, all of this is so true and actually kind of funny because it has cost me such a ridiculous amount of money in the past.

What did he end up having anyway?

It's true he's an idiot and you have a decent hand. But all I was saying is I see this way too often at 100NL from a dummy telling me his hand just improved and he has me beat more often than I am good. Look at his line. He calls the flop then c/r the turn. Looks like he improved or it's a bad slowplay. And I think it's this way more than it is a weak ace. Unless I see the guy making these plays with crap hands earlier in the session I let him have it and wait for a better spot.

On a side note where do you think you're losing money in your game lately? I thought you used to be killing the tables?

Originally Posted by Galapogos

On a side note where do you think you're losing money in your game lately? I thought you used to be killing the tables?

in hands like this

Wow, Renton, just.....wow.



I'd take the time and post something else constructive but you probably wouldn't get that, either.

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Wow, Renton, just.....wow.



I'd take the time and post something else constructive but you probably wouldn't get that, either.

Alright. There you go again.

Listen, I value your advice. Alot. And I'd very much like it if you would continue to give it to me.

I've played a lot of hands of poker. Something like 400,000 hands. I have posted a lot on here. Everybody knows this. But in that post and others (the A2s hand comes to mind) you are talking to me like im a first month player. Fuck, maybe I am one, but you still should understand how much that feeling sucks, to be talked down to like you're a fucking kindergartener.

I know this and the last post i made in this thread has quite an offensive edge to it. I can't really help that right now. Im the most emotionally fucked up about poker now that I have ever been.

This is worse than any downswing I have ever had, because its not even really a downswing. There are two alternatives for any session I play. There's the scheme 'A' session. Thats the kind of session that I'm playing right now. This is where I play really well (at least for me), and would ordinarily be winning if it weren't for the fact that I'm having the worse negative card variance I have ever experienced. Then theres the scheme 'B' session. This is the one where I'm lucky enough to run really well, but I make dumb plays and still somehow manage to end the session down money.

The preceding paragraph is pretty pointless, I only wrote it to illustrate the reason why I sound, and am, so frustrated right now.

The last thing i want, UG, is for you to stop advising me. I just ask that you treat me with the same respect that you would treat any somewhat-seasoned player in a rut.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Wow, Renton, just.....wow.



I'd take the time and post something else constructive but you probably wouldn't get that, either.

Alright. There you go again.

Listen, I value your advice. Alot. And I'd very much like it if you would continue to give it to me.

I've played a lot of hands of poker. Something like 400,000 hands. I have posted a lot on here. Everybody knows this. But in that post and others (the A2s hand comes to mind) you are talking to me like im a first month player. Fuck, maybe I am one, but you still should understand how much that feeling sucks, to be talked down to like you're a fucking kindergartener.

I know this and the last post i made in this thread has quite an offensive edge to it. I can't really help that right now. Im the most emotionally fucked up about poker now that I have ever been.

This is worse than any downswing I have ever had, because its not even really a downswing. There are two alternatives for any session I play. There's the scheme 'A' session. Thats the kind of session that I'm playing right now. This is where I play really well (at least for me), and would ordinarily be winning if it weren't for the fact that I'm having the worse negative card variance I have ever experienced. Then theres the scheme 'B' session. This is the one where I'm lucky enough to run really well, but I make dumb plays and still somehow manage to end the session down money.

The preceding paragraph is pretty pointless, I only wrote it to illustrate the reason why I sound, and am, so frustrated right now.

The last thing i want, UG, is for you to stop advising me. I just ask that you treat me with the same respect that you would treat any somewhat-seasoned player in a rut.

I'm a teacher. No, seriously, I really am a teacher. High School, American History. Being a teacher, I have a different way of viewing people and their problems. Here are two examples of things I deal with on a regular basis:

1) When a student comes to me and says they don't understand an assignment, the first thing I do is ask, "Well, did you read the directions?" Usually the answer is "no," so I have them read the directions to me and then they get it. If they don't get it then I explain it in another way, and another, until they *do* get it.

2) Students will often-times come to me and say, "Coach, my grades are low and I can't figure out why." From there I'll try to get to the root of the problem. What's this particular student's home-life like? Does he/she have to work a full-time job to help support the family? Is he/she running around with friends until the wee-hours of the morning on school nights? Are they paying attention during class? Are they studying? Etc, etc, etc. It's not that they don't "get it," that they don't understand the individual assignments...It's something way deeper than that. I try to get to the root of the problem to help them see the bigger picture, to see everything as a whole.


How does this relate to you? Fuck if I know. It's late (for me) and I'm just rambling now. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I've seen you on here over the past six months to a year, and I've seen you make some really great progress in this game, at least up until a few months ago. Something happened, something changed and you stopped "getting it." I'm not saying you went backwards by any means (although that's possible), but for a while now you seem like you've been stuck in neutral.

My posts haven't really dealt much with your actual hands. The've really centered around your thought process during the hand (or hands). With the amount of posts you make it's been made pretty apparent that something is wrong with your game. Each individual hand in itself isn't all that bad....but taken as a whole, it probably is. Each individual thought you have on a particular hand isn't really bad....but if you add them up, you have a problem.

I'll be the first one to tell you that I'm not the end-all-be-all of poker. But when I see great advice given, or I try to give you solid advice, and you don't seem to "get it," and you just explain why you think you actually played the hand great in the first place (or why your thought process is better), well...it bugs me and I try to figure out a way to explain it so you *will* get it. Or I try to figure out a way to get you to see the big picture, I guess so you'll stop making as many mistakes while playing this game...

Instead of worrying about each hand I've been trying to help you figure out the *root* of your problems. Why, exactly, have you been a break-even/losing poker player over your last 100k hands? I guess I've just gotten tired of seeing you struggle (and I'm sure you're tired of it too).

Meh, I guess I'm done. I'm not sure if any of that made sense up there, but I tried.


P.S. That was a nice post, Renton, and I mean that.