Two hands

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB ($147.10)
UTG ($12.90)
Hero ($136.40)
SB ($94.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, Q.
UTG calls $1, Hero raises to $4, SB calls $3.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $3.

Flop: ($13) J, 5, 6 (3 players)
SB bets $4, UTG calls $4, Hero raises to $16, SB calls $12, UTG calls $4.90 (All-In).

Turn: ($53.90) 6 (3 players, 1 all-in)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($53.90) 2 (3 players, 1 all-in)
SB bets $25, Hero calls $25.

Final Pot: $103.90

Results in white below:
UTG has Jh Th (two pair, jacks and sixes).
Hero has Qd Qh (two pair, queens and sixes).
SB has Ts Jc (two pair, jacks and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins $103.90.

Am I playing this too weak? I don't like his call after I raise his weak bet big, worried he might be slowplaying a set or overpair, that's why I check behind and want to see what he does on river. Thinking about it afterwards I think I should have bet turn though, AJo was probably more likely, what do you think?



PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG ($98.50)
MP ($175.50)
Hero ($194.70)
SB ($28.90)
BB ($90.00)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T, T.
1 fold, MP calls $1, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, BB calls $3, MP folds.

Flop: ($9.50) 3, 3, 2 (2 players)
BB bets $8, Hero calls $8.

Turn: ($25.50) 5 (2 players)
BB bets $25, Hero calls $25.

River: ($75.50) J (2 players)
BB bets $53 (All-In), Hero calls $53.

Final Pot: $181.50

Results in white below:
Hero has Th Td (two pair, tens and threes).
BB has 8h Ac (one pair, threes).
Outcome: Hero wins $181.50.


His play here seems like a bluff to me all the way, that's why I just call him down. He just sat down at the table, it's one of his first hands. I'm thinking a good player wouldn't just call with aces/kings out of position at a table he doesn't know, and then he wouldn't bet out like this on a flop that he was pretty sure I missed. A bad player might call me with A3 or something, but I don't think he would have played it like this either, also all such players slowplays a good flop. QQ/JJ might be possible, but I just didn't think they would play like this, he was betting quick with no sign of slowing down. For all he knows I might sit here with kings or aces. Are these calls I make way too loose?

The first hand I probably raise the turn.

Second hand, you got his stack, well played. If you used your read on him and made a decision like that, and it worked out, then it's obviously right

Both hands show how bad it is to bet oop in a raised pot.
Nice play on both.
If you read QQ was good on the turn in hand one then checking the turn knowing you can get opp to bet the river (even poosh) is a nice play imo so long as another scary card doesnt hit, id be thinking a jack here.
If opps want to play bad post flop poker let them. Position will make them pay more than enough.
Hand 2 thinking is good. Easy call down imo.

Note: at pokerroom these are almost always good due to the bad players. Bet loads with air and just check call with monsters/tp

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Note: at pokerroom these are almost always good due to the bad players. Bet loads with air and just check call with monsters/tp

Huh? I would think you would want to do just the opposite against bad players unless they're the of the awful maniac type.

I think you really need reads to properly analyze these hands. But... here's what I think. 1st hand why didn't you bet the turn? The fact that the board paired 6's is a good thing for your hand, since it means that 66 is nearly out of the question and the only sets you are worried about are JJ and 55, and also hands like Jx are drawing close to dead.. I bet 1/2 pot here and fold to a raise. There's too good of a chance your hand is best here, and I think checking is missing value (not to be results oriented). Look at it this way. Given the way the hand played out, you made an extra $25 after the flop. Do you think you could've made more than that with a turn + river bet. No way is JT going to CR or do something crazy. AA/KK might call you down, but that would just be a tough break.

2nd hand, again very very read dependent. Tricky and aggressive opponents might very well take this line with a monster like flopped boat or possibly higher PP. Just because someone bets huge into you on a seemingly nothing board, I don't think you can be so quick to dismiss it as a bluff. But you had a good read at the time and I'm glad it worked out for you. NH's.

With the QQ hand I was also thinking afterwards that betting the turn would have been a good idea. I was just not sure enough that my hand was the best, after he bet small and called a big raise, and cause of that I did not bet turn. I agree reads are needed, I am improving in that area but still have a way to go, and I usually dont like just calling down like I did in the last hand there, good thing I was right this time.

I dont think not betting the turn in hand one is a loss of value but here goes.
Say for example you hold a big pp and the flop is all rags, not too dangerous but still raggedy. Then either a known bluffer or aggro bets into you on this flop (bad play imo or dangerous at the very least) Then you raise. Why?
1. could quite easily be air
2. position here rules. If someone bets oop with a marginal hand in a raised pot (and top pair on a raggedy board in a raised pot CAN be a marginal hand) then you ask to be bullied positionally. Preflop raiser with position can rep anything, miricle rags if hes a laggy player, AA or overpair if tight. Whateva. This thus puts the oop player to the test on a what may now look a very marginal hand. Hence why position is so important. The line here with QQ can easily be done with air.
So checking the turn isnt a horrible option. Yes its possible opp bet second pair oop on a safe looking board but imo opp has to be really bad to do that. And then to call a raise with only second pair oop is risky, not bad but definatly risky. Therfore checking the turn does two things.
1. do we really have a hand or did we just raise a low flop with air
2. encourages players to bet into perceived weakness.
If the jack paired on the turn we're in trouble imo, as its likely thats what opp bet oop or at least can rep on later streets. If second pair pairs that is IMO a goodcard. It gives opp an oppertunity to bluff at the pot when we read hes well behind. therefore checking the trun induces opp to put more money into the pot oop on the river when we can be pretty sure out hand is good.
I think like this simply from a laggs POV. I often raise any two preflop in position and c-bet the flop. Then i often check the turn behind. Why? yes it gives free cards for hands to improve (a pair only improves like a few times) but it can mean i need either a free card of flopped a monster. Thus while i check the turn and lose value i can play the river with impunity. If you called a raise of mine knowing im loose with AK and flop was A68 i bet you call you check the turn and so do i and then value bet the river and i move all in can u call? Not really unless you know the tp is good. Especially thsi is fun when draws complete on the river and i start ignoring value bets and make huge raises. hence, i dont mind checking a turn to induce big river play because i have the advantage of position. How many players will check raise the river if the turn has been checked behind them and they have a hand. Not too many, theyll want to make a value bet. hence my thoughts. By all menas disagree, its anew line ive taken as i open up a more laggy style.

I think it might be a good line in many cases, and there also is the thing with not wanting to build a huge pot with a marginal hand sometimes. I'm also very laggy, I raise a lot of hands from position and it can often be hard to know if my hand is good, A7, is my kicker good? Stuff like that, I will bet this hand in position and often raise, but then getting called without any draws up there I'm getting concerned about my kicker. So I check behind on turn, did not really think of the other advantages that you mentioned here Miffed, but it's interesting, and tonight I've seen some of what you mention here. I checked behind turn, and I got a bet on the river, wich I called, from something that turned out to be a weak hand.

I also find that if I continuation bet, like I almost always do unless the board looks too bad, and get called, they will usually bet river with a ok hand if I check behind on turn with nothing. If I catch something good I get value here. If they however check river, I've started to fire off another continuation bet, like you say, people seldom checkraise river, and at least from my experience often folds to a big river bet when checking to me. Another way to use the check behind, or what do you think? And thanks for the good reply by the way.

i think checking the turn will get you called on the river with big hands, something more difficult to do as you move away from 25nl and 50nl but you also need to know if marginal stuff is good eg Ax poor kicker even middle pair AND when to minraise (so you get called) reasonable holdings for value.
Ive only looked at this style of play because ive returned to 6 max lately from full ring and found that at 100NL or higher we have both players who can run a decent bluff and aggressive players who still make fundamental mistakes oop or especially if they smell weakness. Punishing these mistakes in marginal situation hopefully pushes the winrate up a touch. It also opens up possibilities for laggy players to access hands easier.